trinityofone | Okay, just one quick fic question...

12 is probably good. I was still playing complex imaginary fantasy dungeon games in the playground when I was about ten, I know that :)

The downside with twelve (at least here) is that it's secondary school age, and you tend to deliberately move away from that sort of thing. Certainly at school, although less so outside of it.

(also, Harrison Ford! Have you ever noticed the freaky resemblance Joe Flanigan sometimes has to him?)

(also also, sticks are AWESOME!)

(also also also, go and shower! Go to the library! We'll be here when you get back! :))

Twelve is the last year of elementary school here (and by "here" I mean "America," even though I of course am not in America and Rodney's Canadian, but whatever, John has totally hijacked this story anyway, he does that, the evil little minx). So I guess that kind of works--it's right on the edge, right before the switchover.

Although maybe I should cut the difference and make them 11? It has a nice Harry Potter-esq quality. But then for some reason, sexual activity (and by sexual activity I mean one! frickin'! kiss!) at 11 squicks me in a way that sexual activity at 12 does not. WTF?

Harrison Ford! Have you ever noticed the freaky resemblance Joe Flanigan sometimes has to him?

Well, Steve McQueen and Harrison Ford and Joe Flanigan all have that "I am so hot that I can be a total dork and do dorky things with a dorky grin on my dorky, beautiful face and it'll be even HOTTER because I am such a dork" thing goin' on. (What? That's a THING!) Is that what you mean?

And look at me, all accomplished: I showered! My hair is totally wet!

Sticks rock.

Last year of elementary sounds even better. 12 would be fine, I think.

Um. *attempts to convince you with lame photographic evidence*

I'll have to see if I can find better images later.

Well done for showering! Now: library time! :)

Well, their faces have totally different shapes, and their hair is not remotely the same (I know it's cliché, but JF's hair is really a breed apart), but there's definitely a similarity in the mouth-chin area. Not to mention: I am so very hot for both of them.

Annnnnd: just so you know, I DID go to the library, and I got a bunch of books, and I really am going to read them now. Or at least leaf through them. Or have a sandwich.

I totally suck at research.

Oh, yes, totally different face-shape. JF is so much pointier ;) And the hair. It's more expression, I think. Because I kept seeing this particular "look" on JF and being massively annoyed because I couldn't work out why it was so familiar, until I finally realised it was Han Solo :) Just to add fuel to all those "John = Han" arguments, you know?

Also, I AM ASHAMED that I still think Harrison Ford is hot even now he's sleazy and runs away with younger women. Although he's aged a lot in the last few years.
*uses Harrison Ford icon JUST FOR YOU*

Go you! I would encourage you to work now, but my hypocrisy only goes so far *g*. Although I really am working! Sort of!

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trinityofone.livejournal.com - 2006-02-20 14:27 (UTC) - Expand

I'd definitely say 12 - just before my first real kiss, but old enough to want in that kind of vague way. And I have never stopped believing, at least partially, that at some point I will find a portal to someplace better, preferably with dancing penguins and a handsome prince with a cool sword. (I never read the Narnia books.) But I seem to remember my guy friends being all, "Ew, girls!" at age ten, but by age 12 they were trying to look down my shirt. So that sounds about right.

Yes, but if AU John and Rodney have a first fumbly mostly-very-innocent kiss at 12 in the same story in which they're also chasing imaginary dragons through the woods, is that icky or kind of sweet? *so confusèd*

I have never stopped believing, at least partially, that at some point I will find a portal to someplace better, preferably with dancing penguins and a handsome prince with a cool sword.

Sigh. I still kind of believe it, too. Or at least, I exist in a state of perpetual disappointment that it has NOT happened.

It'd be icky any earlier than 12. But 12 makes sense, and is kind of sweet. Any earlier than 12 it'd be a little, "Um, how old are they supposed to be?"

It'll happen yet. You live in Ireland - people get taken by the fairies all the time, don't they? *cough*

More often than you'd think.

Hmm. Boys grow up slower than girls, but there were always some boys (especially the better looking ones) who seemed to be precocious. The trick is dealing with one boy who's more sexually aware than the other one.

Let's see... in the real life My First Time gay stories book I have... hmm... the very youngest seem to be 12, but 13-16 is by far the most common age for first time experiences with sex. There's almost no instances of kissing for boys under 15. In fact, I can't find a single one.

The later first time stories (age 15-22) tended to have kissing, just not the ones with younger kids.

Most of them seemed to involve skinny dipping or other excuses to look at each other naked, rolling around in barns or on camping trips and showing each other their dicks, which devolves to watching eachother as they stroke their (own) dicks. They don't seem to count it as anything that crosses the line until they touch eachother's cocks.

Icarus

Yeah, I'm not totally sold on the kiss. At this point, I'm pretty much waiting to see how the scene plays out--mostly there's just talking so far, as Rodney, unsurprisingly, will not shut up. ;-) But I'm gonna try not to force it, and hopefully just go with whatever seems natural. There is actually supposed to be some rolling around in a barn at some point. *g*

The trick is dealing with one boy who's more sexually aware than the other one.

How do you mean? Because that is, kind of, what the situation is; I can't seem to get John and Rodney to stop playing Jim Nightshade and Will Halloway. Anyway, if you feel like elaborating further, that'd be cool. Thanks!

The nice thing about young boys is that one of them will take the lead and just flat out suggest something. If the other one doesn't want to go along with it, he'll look openly disappointed, or argue for his good idea ("my brother does it" "you're chicken"). If the one is sexually mature enough to realize where this is headed he'll try something subtle.

'Subtle' at that age is suggesting some sort of game, like strip poker, complete with some beer they steal from dad's fridge. Which turns the whole thing into an adventure of James Bond proportions.

If he doesn't realize where the sort of play he has in mind could lead (which happens, he just has as a starting point that he wants a look), he'll probably say something direct like "I can shoot farther than you" "What do you mean, guns?" (withering look) "No." Then ends up teasing the hell out of his friend because he hasn't discovered masturbation. "That's not fair! I have an older sister."

99.9999999% of the time the less mature of the two goes along with ideas that he doesn't quite comprehend because he doesn't want to look uncool or slow down the game to ask questions. So they get pretty far along, pretty fast. Very often watching each other masturbate, which moves into mutual masturbation (either over time or in one afternoon). If one of them has seen a dirty movie or magazine they might try a blowjob, but something has to put the idea in their head. An initial attempt at anal sex is extremely rare, and usually when one is much other than the other or is exposed to a lot of sexual input (such as spending a lot of time at the Y).

What's surprising is how often two boys can meet that day and get sexually involved. They can splash each other in the public pool all afternoon then beg their parents to play longer. Kids make friends like that. *snaps fingers* Then one will suggest "Hey, I know someplace where we can go...." and they end up sun-bathing in the nude. "So no tan lines!"
"I'm going to get sun-burned."
"You're too white, especially your ass."
"Shut up about my ass."
"If you let yourself get some sun, you wouldn't get sun-burned." (says the kid ignorant of different skin-types who only knows how he burns).
"Really?"

The kids are so blunt, one will point out "You're hard."
"Shut up, I can't help it."

The nifty thing about age 12/13 is that they don't seem to freak out, especially in the late 70s' suburbia. The idea of being 'gay' was not really part of popular culture so most kids were fairly innocent and didn't know a whole hell of a lot about it. It's a joke that's tossed around but they don't really have any idea what it means beyond someone acting feminine (yes, that ignorant, I'm fortunate to be Rodney's age). They know enough not to tell anyone, and just assume that they're not gay because they're not any different from the way they were before.

Isn't one of them a little older than the other? Because that's a huge difference at that age and the usual pattern is the slightly older one initiates the slightly younger (even if neither one knows very much).

Hey, I hope this flood of information helps. Can't wait to read the story.

Icarus

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fantasy games: cat. warriors. that is all i have to say. *is all nostalgic*

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Cat warriors? Really? Cool.

I played a lot of Narnia. And I was a unicorn for a while. Not to mention some weird game I invented based on the movie Tremors: basically, a "Don't touch the ground or you will be eaten by giant worms" kind of thing. Kid stuff. ;-)

Heh. I maintained a half-hearted, hopeful belief in Santa Claus for ages. I think I was 16 before, in an argument with my mother, I yelled something like, "And also, Santa does NOT exist! Fuck you!"

tom cruise (ah the good old days when he wasn't weird)

Yeah, I used to like him, and now he's nuts, and I can't watch Jerry Maguire anymore. *pouts*

it's amazing what you can do with stuff you find in a dumpster

I traded the city for the country too early, it seems. *g* At least I've subsequently traded back!

Thanks for the advice. ;-)

I think I was 16 before, in an argument with my mother, I yelled something like, "And also, Santa does NOT exist! Fuck you!"

My mom still gives me presents at Christmas signed "TO BETSY FROM SANTA". *rolls eyes* But I will never forgive her for disillusioning me at the age of eight, when I went to bed early on Christmas and she woke me up making lots of noise while moving presents from her room into the living room. I watched her for, like, ten minutes moving, like, shopping bags full of wrapped gifts before it hit me that my mom was Santa. Someday, if we ever have a fight, I will throw that back in her face. I'm still traumatised. Eight is way too early to not believe in Santa.

Yeah, my dad screwed up real early with the Easter Bunny.

My Dad: "Okay, kids: now go see where we--um, I mean, the Easter Bunny--hid the eggs!"
My Mom: *facepalm* Oh, Jeff.

But yeah, I still get gifts from Santa and eggs from the Bunny and I'm pretty sure that if I got punched in the mouth and lost some molars, the Tooth Fairy would show up. CHILDHOOD NEVER DIES. Unless you're cussing out your parents.

Heh. We just stopped doing the easter basket thing because my mom really couldn't be arsed to dye eggs after the year all the dye got spilled on the carpet. I think we did that once, maybe? But I made her buy me Cadbury Creme Eggs every year without fail. Amazing what guilt at not following the rest of the tradition can do.

Hee. Punched in the mouth. I can really not see you without teeth. I think the tooth fairy would probably laugh a little. And then you'd have to cuss her out, and it would ruin the whole thing.

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trinityofone.livejournal.com - 2006-02-20 20:46 (UTC) - Expand

Probably about 12. At 12 I was in my final year of primary school and still setting up fantasy worlds in my back garden but also crushing on boys. And uh, Hugh Grant.

Ten years on and I still set up fantasy worlds although now they're on the internet and they involve a hell of a lot of porn. And I also crush on girls. And my Hugh Grant crush is back. Um.

HUGH GRANT IS ETERNAL.

...Actually, with the way he's looking, I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if there were a portrait in his attic or something. Hmm.

Dude, totally. I mean, he is aging but he's so totally not *aging*. My crush suffered a major blow around the time that he got arrested with the hooker but it flared back up again in the last couple of years.

Kinda like ht Harrison Ford and Richard Gere crush. :g:

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Yeah, but this is taking place in, like, Norman Rockwell America, so none of that, none of that. ;-)

And yeah, as I told

wychwood, sticks rock. Heh. That amuses me waaaaaay too much.

John and Rodney are right around the age that, so long as their parents didn't divorce (divorce rates shot through the roof with no-fault divorces in the mid-70s):

a) Mom would have been home, and maybe had a part-time job during the school year (the ubiquitous Avon).

b) Kids were let loose all day. So long as they came home for meals and told mom where they were going, and waited 20 minutes before getting back into the pool, they just disappeared.

c) There were a lot of woods, open lots where you could play army-man (the guys who grew up queer loved to be the soldier who got injured and had to be 'helped' by the others), and boys had BB guns where they did stupid things (everyone has a BB gun story where they shot a friend, ooops).

d) Their parents were right on the border of the 60s. If John or Rodney's the oldest in the family, mom and dad were probably a little out there in some way (folk singers or beatniks who've settled down, though the pot was still around). If they're the youngest, they're parents would be total 1950s housewives.

e) Pot was everywhere. Cheech and Chong were "the Thing" for 12-year-olds.

f) Also, getting to stay up and watch Steve Martin on Saturday Night Live (which was funny back then) "I'm a wiiiiild and crazy Guy!" was definitely something the cool kids got to do.

g) Music-wise, Kiss was "in" for guys, while the conservative parents worried about their satanic style (I kid you not). Pink Floyd's "The Wall" had just come out and everyone was singing "Hey! Teachers! Leave us kids alone!" (the school marms hated it). The very cool guys were into AC/DC and would chant "He's got the biggest BALLS OF THEM ALL!" since being offensive is the M.O. of most 12-year-olds. Naturally, the gay and transvestite implications of AC/DC went right over their heads, they just thought "Back In Black" was the hottest thing ever. "Stairway To Heaven" was also new, definitely the stoner song and the Eagles' "Hotel California" was being played to death on the radio. I mean, to death. Everyone cool hated it. The tail end of Disco was just disappearing around the bend, with a few songs by Blondie like "Heart of Glass" and "Rapture."

h) Smoking in the bathroom was cool for the "bad" 12-year-olds, while pot was something the teenagers did. It was easy to get cigarettes, you could wheedle the drug-store clerk if they knew your mom smoked ("mom sent me to get them") or there were cigarette machines in the lobby of a lot of restaurants and bars. Health issues were not even considered because most kids' parents smoked.

i) There was an air of permissiveness about sex with weird stuff going on behind closed suburban doors. Even the kids knew not to "criticize" and to be "open-minded." And everyone knew someone in the neighborhood where things were getting a little weird (mostly wife-swapping was big). There were a lot of commercials about not being racist in certain areas hard-hit by the riots in the late 60s.

j) Streaking! Nudity was IN!

k) "Duck and Cover" drills at school in preparation for nuclear attack, which the smart ones (like Rodney) knew was completely inadequate. Everyone was fairly certain WWIII was going to happen at some point and were really anti-Russian. Most of the war games boys played were WWII however, because the Russians were a sensitive issue. No one wanted to play the Russians.

*pant, pant* Helpful? It's fun, that's for sure.

Icarus

Let's see... there was a real generation gap between the parents. There could be only a five-year age difference between the adults, and their values would be completely changed.

You knew you had one of the "new" generation beatnik parents when:

- They had wheat bread instead of white, and margarine instead of butter. Their kids said words like "nutrition." For normal families white Wonder bread and tuna casserole was just fine.

- The kid had a lot of rules no one else had. For example, the weird parents restricted the TV-time, or didn't like their kid to watch certain violent shows. (There was a lot of parental disapproval about "The Dukes of Hazzard" being gratitously violent so that was the usual off-limits show.)

- Mom had lots of ideas about ERA or the "Equal Rights Ammendment." She didn't go to PTA or the local church but she was in therapy. And talked about it. A lot.

- The parents fought a lot rather than keeping a calm plastic exterior.

- Their kids were totally disinterested in smoking/pot/what-have-you even though they had easy access to it. It was what their parents did, so they didn't care.

- Their kids were on their own a lot more than most kids, and so while they were given a lot more rules to follow, they had to self-mandate. It was ironic but true that the very parents who interfered most in their kids' lives were around the least and much more self-involved. Mostly these kids hung out at their friends' houses.

Let's see, other Norman Rockwell-but-not aspects of the late 70s... oh yes. The ice cream trucks were everywhere, and kids saw nothing wrong with buying ice cream in front of their friend if they could get money for ice cream and their friend couldn't. So buying ice cream for your buddy (especially if mom didn't prompt you?) was the height of generosity.

But really, the kids from "normal" families really felt sorry for the kids with the "weird" parents.

Icarus

Kids either walked or got around on their bikes. Moms very often didn't have her own car, so if you couldn't get there by bike, you didn't go.

Besides, who wanted to go all the way back home to ask? You were miles away from home by 2pm.

The way kids got to wander off and spend time by themselves or in a pack of kids is really different. It was fairly common for a kid to come limping home with a sprained ankle, supported by a friend.

Mom would have to milk the story out of him about how he was playing on some abandoned rusted farm equipment they found in the woods. Mom would wrap his foot up (you only went to the hospital for serious injuries) and make a new rule about not playing on the rusted farm equipment, which everyone would ignore.

Oh, also? The new-fangled parents supported their kids getting into this new game called Dungeons & Dragons, as it was "imaginative" and "healthy." It was originally considered the PBS of childhood games (and very quickly became geek-heaven).

As for videogames, someone mentioned here... didn't have them until a little later, not at home. Most of the video games were in seedy arcades where a lot of the drug trafficking was done (I kid you not). Even the most permissive parents called them off-limits for the 12-year-olds. There was a lot of smoking and pot behind the arcades by the teenagers, but John and Rodney were a little young for that crowd.

By the time John/Rodney were 14, 15, Atari and Intellivision came out, with Donkey Kong and other such games. (The Beatnik families -- who all later bought Macs -- would have the Intellivision of course: better graphics, fewer games available.)

Icarus

All the kids listened to records of Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby was a universal constant. Everyone had his records.

Bill Cosby: "Ice cream! We're gonna have Ice Cream! You know what I'm gonna do when I get that ice cream? I'm not gonna eat it. I'm gonna smear it. Alll over my body. And I'm gonna put the cherry... in my belly-button."

Why we as kids thought that belly-button line was so funny is beyond me.

Icarus

I'm apparently a little precocious:)

My first boyfriend/innocent kiss was in 1st grade, so 7ish. 2nd grade me and girl across the street would hide behind a deck chair on my porch and play 'honeymoon' which involved more kissing until we would decide to play superhero instead. And I was still determined play make believe up into HS. 12, totally believable.

Now I'm feeling all nostalgic. Yay for sticks as swords and staffs and wands and guns and *joy*! Why aren't I that easy to entertain anymore?

I think I would be, if I weren't so damn stressed. I think I should just quit school and be an ETERNAL CHILD for a living. You down with that?

I agree with twelve, from what I've seen of twelve-year-old boys.

I do not agree about sticks, because cardboard boxes are the best toy ever.

You're right, it's a pretty close contest. Because I mean, yes, with a cardboard box you can make a transmogrifier, and those totally rock. But for me, nothing beats walking down the street, casually reaching out and breaking off a loose branch, and voila, instant sword-staff-spear-whatever. It's AWESOME.

Also, you can thunk your younger brother with them.

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Oh, no: me, too, totally. In fact, all that's STILL going on. I was just worried that I was a total freak or something. ;-)

I'd say 11 - for me, that was grade 6, when we got The Talk at school, and everyone was suddenly pubescing, and Jack totally got an erection sitting next to Sadie in Assembly. There was a lot of voracious reading of Biology textbooks and womens' magazines, and a lot of running up to boys on a dare and asking them about their penises. Ahh, grade 6 at Saltbun Primary - I look back on it with such... horror.

I don't know, 12 would be seventh grade? I would say then maybe 10 or 11, because by seventh grade I was definately more into the whole 'OMG that person is a sexual being' thing.

Will ask my hubby for his input though.

OK..... now.... for me it was 8..... my first kiss on lips definetely 8.... my first sexual fantasy too.... but I've had first sexual situation with one of my friend *if you can rate it like that* when I was very litle 4 or 5.
But I blame for the first fantasy my brother... he is 8 years older and had playboy and stuff like that and I was soooooo very curios, so I have known about sex when I was 8.
I'm girl yes, but I don't think it would have been otherwise if I were boy.... if the boy would have older brother it is pretty possible for him to have fantasy very soon in his life

because at 12 I think I was still semi-convinced that I could still find the wardrobe to Narnia, but also I was crushing on Harrison Ford like mad and cutting his picture out of magazines and stuff

That is *exactly* what I was doing when I was twelve. That's kind of scary. But then I was still doing that when I was fourteen.

I was thinking twelve, too, because I definitely remember being twelve and still running around outside with my friends pretending we were horses or fairies or whatever the mythical creature of the week was, but at the same time, zomg Backstreet Boys etc. I don't know if it's the same for boys, because I think at some point they go from "imagination!" to "video games!" and I think I remember all the neighborhood boys hitting that when they were ten or so. But, you know. Thing.

I am so excited for this story now.

actually, you got me thinking about this and now I remember that, weirdly enough, my fantasy world/sexual awakening split happened around the same time I went from Catholic school to public school. Coincidence? Probably, since it was a switch from elementary school to jr. high. But now I'm grinning and thinking that "the nuns, they did nothing!" to keep me from that inevitable...*cough* flowering.

also, there was my discovery of the internet in seventh grade. and it was all down hill from there.

Ok, this is going to seem really really late, but I was a freshman in high school. SERIOUSLY late bloomer. So, I was 14. Ugh.. yeah, that sounds even stranger when I actually wrote it down.

But I never actually got past fantasy stories in my head and pretending. I just stopped thwacking people with sticks.

Why does the overlap need to be only one year? I'd say 8-18.

Because it's for a story: I need to choose an age for the characters to be, and I know from experience that it's very difficult to be more than one age at once.

I was going to say 12, because at 12 I think I was still semi-convinced that I could still find the wardrobe to Narnia, but also I was crushing on Harrison Ford like mad and cutting his picture out of magazines and stuff.

And you were what, 17 when you were convinced that we had actually found Narnia? ;)

Uh oh. Am I having selective amnesia again?

At your birthday party, I forget where it was exactly, there was a lamppost in the back...not really yard, but out behind the apartment.

I still maintain that it was, in fact, the End of Time, as the wardrobe to Narnia is at the company I work at. I've had a couple meetings in there.

Oh, yes. That was at the apartment next door to my grandfather's. Gee, you get a little cake in me and I'm awfully whimsical, aren't I?

I'm still looking for it. I don't think I'll ever stop looking.

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sonofzeal.livejournal.com - 2006-02-20 22:29 (UTC) - Expand

I would definitely say 12. Before that love, romance and acting on it was all sort of an abstract concept, and around then it became kind of a tantalising thing off on the horizon that was scary but sort of exciting.

I still make up complex fantasy worlds and play pretend and I'm 27 (though sadly I don't get to hit people with sticks nearly as much as I sometimes think they deserve. *G*) But for normal people? Yeah, 12 sounds good. ^_^

Okay, just one quick fic question...

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Re: sticks!

The cardboard refrigerator box is the only way to go.

Refrigerator box, I mean: big-time fort.

Oh, oh, oh -- and something else that's different!

Since I'm over-commenting already, what the heck....

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Err...