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trinityofone ([personal profile] trinityofone) wrote2009-05-03 07:09 pm
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SPN Meta: Pulling 'The Rapture' Down to Earth

When I first watched this episode, all I could manage in the way of a response—as everyone from [livejournal.com profile] bmouse to [livejournal.com profile] aesc will attest—was cries of “AHHHHHHHHHHH!” and what Mouse calls “jellyfish fingers.” Now, after a truly sad number of rewatches, I have some actual observations. I’ve also highlighted what I consider to be some of the big questions that I hope the show will answer—or that we need to answer in fic. Some of this is general stuff, but I will admit that the whole post has a serious Dean/Castiel bent.

The Observations!

1. Possibly the most significant thing that I took away from this episode was the utter lack of any connection between Dean and Jimmy. The chemistry, the bond that we’ve been seeing all season was totally gone—there were no more of those lingering gazes that Dean and Castiel have been sharing since they first met. Dean seemed to think Jimmy was a nice guy who should be able to get back to his family, and Jimmy looked like he felt nothing for Dean at all. Which means that everything we’ve been seeing up to this point really was a connection between Dean and Castiel, between a human and an angel uninfluenced by his vessel. That’s…actually sort of amazing to me. It certainly represents a whole lot of emotion coming from a being that’s not supposed to feel anything.

2. Speaking of feelings: the terror on Cas’ face in the first scene! Wow. I think that is the most raw emotion we’ve seen from him, and it creates such a great contrast with his affect in the flashbacks (“I am not your father”) and at the end of the episode. He’d really come a long way. (Note past tense.) Ouch.

3. We really weren’t given much of an idea what Jimmy thought of Dean and Sam, which is unfortunate, at the very minimum because I always like to see outsiders’ views of main characters. One interesting thing was the line “These boys are going to get you a car”—these boys? If we assume Jimmy is Misha Collins’ age (b. 1974), then he’s only five years older than Dean and that’s sort of an odd choice of words. (For the record/for comparison, Jared and Jensen are both one year older than their characters.) I wonder what it says about how Jimmy views the brothers Winchester—maybe it’s a commentary on their lack of certain types emotional maturity or their lack of general stability (they're not fathers, they don't have wives, homes, children)?

4. Another line that fascinated me: “He asked me to do it,” Jimmy says when trying to explain to Amelia why he’s sticking his bare hand in boiling water. So either Castiel identified to Jimmy as male or Jimmy assumed as much. Since I am curious about whether angels are naturally sexed (not like that. Perv.) in the SPN-verse, the former case would be interesting to me. And it would add an interesting element to Castiel’s (apparent) willingness to use Claire as a vessel.

5. Some thoughts about names. First, everyone—EVERYONE: Sam, Anna, Jimmy—is using Dean’s nickname for Castiel now. This really seems to me like everyone adopting Dean’s nickname, not like Dean being the first to use a nickname that was there all along. (Can you really see Castiel saying, “Call me Cas?” No.) But I would be interested in other theories on this. Second, I’m not sure if this was intentional, but I’ve been thinking for a while that I was unusually impressed with Anna being called Anna: the name means “graceful one.” I may be giving TPTB too much credit here, but there was another nice one in this episode: James means “the usurper,” which is painfully ironic in the case of poor usurped Jimmy.

6. A timeline quandary: Castiel obviously prepped Jimmy for more than a day, which itself would have been less than the time (right?) between when Cas stopped trying to talk to Dean directly and Cas appeared to Dean all vesseled up. So are we to assume that Castiel used his time bending mojo? Or did he have Jimmy waiting in the wings? My gut instinct says the former, but again, I would love others’ thoughts.

7. Details I liked: Jimmy’s mad chopping skillz, and also his really rather impressive reflexes when taking on Roger!demon. (Am I starting to scan everyone for hunting-applicable skills?) Also, the fact that Jimmy got dressed up (changed out of that sweatshirt into the ensemble we know) to have his big talk with Castiel on the walk—an interesting display of reverence there. And I love that we actually got to see the tie get loosened into its usual, slightly askew position. That’s a gorgeous detail.

8. It may be worth noting that what Sam was offering Jimmy in regards to his family—“Either you get as far away from them as you can or you put a bullet in your brain”—is actually about comparable with what heaven/Castiel ends up offering—and Jimmy ends up taking. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

9. It’s not until Jimmy gets shot in the stomach that we FINALLY get a reaction shot from Dean. (Dean. Not Sam. Just Dean.) I would love to hear some people analyze that moment from Dean’s perspective. Is what he’s feeling just his usual guilt and worry over the death of one of the innocent people his whole life is about saving? Or is he finally having to confront the fact that Cas is missing and may be dead?

10. When Sam, all bloody-mouthed after snacking on demon juice, turns around to kill the demon in Amelia, Dean actually starts away like he’s afraid of him before he realizes that Amelia is there. Tiny tiny thing, but brilliant: for a second there, Dean though Sam was coming after him. Brr!

11. “I learned my lesson while I was away, Dean. I serve Heaven, I don’t serve Man. And I certainly don’t serve you.” There’s three sentences that I won’t be able to get out of my head for a while. This episode was so painful, but so brilliant too—it crushed me, but at the same time filled me with hope because it made me feel like the show is taking the relationship between Dean and Castiel really seriously: it’s important to them, too. (Albeit platonically.) On a less serious note: I know this is not the metaphor they were going for at all, but it kind of feels like mommy and daddy realized their son Cas was in love with his friend Dean, so they sent him to creepy Bible cure-the-gay camp. There’s a “But I’m a Cheerleader!” AU here somewhere. (“But I’m an Angel!”?)

12. And fine, while I’m being ridiculous, I just want to say: a) “Was it a refreshing Coke?” = a line that has not ceased to provide me with glee, which in such a dark ep I really needed; and b) I really like Jimmy’s skinny little arms. Thank you, temporary trenchcoat removal!

So if you wade through all that blather, what you’re left with are these essential questions that we either need to have answered or need to answer for ourselves:

The Questions!

1. First and foremost, what did Castiel want to tell Dean? I’ve come up with one theory, based on absolutely nothing, which is that Cas wanted to tell Dean not to let any angels (including him) put the Heavenly whammy on Dean that we got a glimpse of in the teaser for next week. (See below.) Possibly this is not so much a theory as the germ of a fic idea, but anyway: THOUGHTS?

2. What is in Jimmy’s blood that makes him special? Someone somewhere mentioned the idea that Jimmy might be descended from Nephilim, which is certainly an interesting thought.

3. Why does Castiel need Jimmy to stay in his body? Is this a requirement specific to angels? Ruby—and therefore demons in general—obviously doesn’t need the human soul to still be present for her to possess a body. And we’ve generally seen angels to be more powerful than demons—an angelic vessel can be injured and survive even without the angel present, unlike with demonic possession where a fatal injury is a death sentence for the human host. So what gives?

4. In the meantime, assuming that Jimmy has to stick around for whatever Dean and Cas get up to in the future, what I’m curious about is this: If Jimmy doesn’t care much about Dean by now—which, judging from their interaction in this episode, he doesn’t seem to—what could make him change his mind?

5. Was Castiel really intending to stay in Claire or was it (and I strongly feel that it was) a ploy all along? (The alternative is just waaaaaaay too creepy. And on a practical level, Castiel had to know that camping out in a little girl would have made Dean almost impossible to work with, due to Lilith associations and just general skeeviness.)

6. What did the team upstairs actually do to Castiel? And why? I think it was [livejournal.com profile] turtlespeaks who said she assumed it was because of Cas helping Dean protect Sam from Lilith via Chuck, but I’m not sure. One, is that big enough? Two, if that had been it, wouldn’t the response time have been faster? I think it was something else.

7. WHAT IS THE WHAMMY CAS IS PUTTING ON DEAN IN THE CLIPS FROM THE REMAINING EPISODES? I NEED TO KNOW THIS IMMEDIATELY.

So there you have, basically, everything that I’ve been turning over and over in my head and trying to make sense of since the episode aired on Thursday. Here is all of the information I have to work with as I ask myself: where do we go from here? I would love to hear people’s answers to that question, or any of these others, or some questions of their own.

I certainly haven’t been this excited by something happening inside my TV in a long time.

[identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
It is possible I have already rewatched this ep SEVERAL TIMES. But you can't prove anything.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:18 am (UTC)(link)
Just like you can't prove that in addition to rewatching the ep SEVERAL TIMES I have also additionally rewatched select scenes over and over to check out every twitch and nuance because the whole thing has invaded my brain and is driving me INSANE.

Nope, can't prove it!

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[identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com - 2009-05-04 02:31 (UTC) - Expand
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[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:38 am (UTC)(link)
I know! It's like, "When did Supernatural get all awesome and SUBTLE?" Though actually, rewatching previous seasons, it's pretty impressive how good they are at mapping out character arcs and foreshadowing stuff. Or maybe I've just been brainwashed by all the pretty pretty manpain.
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[identity profile] polaris-starz.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure I will ever actually be able to watch this episode. At least not until more episodes have aired and I know what happens after this, and only then if what happens after doesn't break my heart seven ways from Sunday.

I am kind of pathetic.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:39 am (UTC)(link)
Aww! But it's the GOOD type of heartbreak, really! Like, heartbreak with a purpose—good storytelling.

[identity profile] heathenseyes.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
I though that Castiel taking over Claire and offering Jimmy the chance to go to heaven was another test. I admit to puzzling over that one a bit because it'd be way on the creepy side.

Plus, if Castiel really wanted Claire for his vessel, he would have just let Jimmy die, but he didn't. He gave Jimmy the choice of basically being tortured over the next few(to few hundred) years or just going on to heaven and allowing his daughter to serve in his place.

I am going with the Jimmy did actaully get to go to heaven and Cas is now the only one residing there. Though, that's just me. :)

And I loved at the end of the ep when Dean calls for Castiel and Cas actually hesitates before looking at Dean, almost like he was willing himself not to be weak.

So much heartbreak in such a short amount of time. Can't wait to see next week's epi.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:21 am (UTC)(link)
It felt like it could have been a test to me, too, but a test of what? Alternately, I think it was probably a trick: he needed Jimmy to invite him back in. It's possible that angels, unlike demons, need permission. (We didn't see Castiel ask Claire, but I bet if he had whispered in her ear, "Do you want to save your family?" the response would have been a firm yes.)

I am going with the Jimmy did actaully get to go to heaven and Cas is now the only one residing there. Though, that's just me. :)

That's a theory that could work, although it doesn't make me less sad, just sad in a different way. Ow, show. OW.

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[identity profile] percysowner.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
Why does Castiel need Jimmy to stay in his body? Is this a requirement specific to angels? Ruby—and therefore demons in general—obviously doesn’t need the human soul to still be present for her to possess a body. And we’ve generally seen angels to be more powerful than demons—an angelic vessel can be injured and survive even without the angel present, unlike with demonic possession where a fatal injury is a death sentence for the human host. So what gives?

I'm not sure demons can't heal their hosts, I just think they don't want to. The demon can move and exist no matter how hurt the body they inhabit is. So why bother using energy to heal a body that works just fine. Plus, demons are perfectly willing to find another body if the first one falters. Angels (or at least Castiel) may care about the vessels they inhabit, although we didn't see Castiel trying to heal Uriel's host or the host of the female Angel that Uriel killed.

For now I think that Angels may be less powerful than we have been led to believe and part of their conditioning is to clean up any injuries that the body sustained.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:23 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, that's a good point; I didn't think of that. Though it still doesn't explain why Castiel would need Jimmy to still be in there if Ruby can use an "empty" body.

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[identity profile] bitchygrrl.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
I agree this episode certainly leaves us in an intersting place as far as all of the relationships on the show are concerned.
re #11: That would be a wonderful AU fic. :)
I think Cas was called upstairs, for the helping Dean protect Sam thing, because it was part of a continuing pattern of disobedience.

[identity profile] sharp-tongue.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
My theory about #1 ties in with #6. I think Castiel found out whatever it was that Chuck saw at the end of tMatEotB, the thing Zachariah told Chuck he wasn't allowed to tell Dean and Sam, and Castiel was going to give Dean warning. And that's what caused the angels to drag him back to Heaven. He was going to disobey.

He'd skirted the line before but not actually crossed it, but if he told Dean something that 1) was interfering with the prophecies and 2) something which was forbidden to share with the Winchesters, then that would be Bad. As Anna said, disobeying is angel's murder one.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:30 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I didn't make the connection to what Chuck saw—that could work. (Of course, BUT WHAT WAS IT? remains the pertinent question.)

Cas has definitely been skirting that line for a while, as you say; I'm just very interested in specifics—I want to know specifically what made Zachariah or whoever decide that they actually needed to intervene in such a drastic way. Or, if they were just disturbed by a general pattern, why act to correct it NOW?
ext_326509: (excited)

[identity profile] danse-amore.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 02:57 am (UTC)(link)
Speculationish Answers:

1) Obviously "I love you". But really - I think it has to do with who ambushed him at the warehouse, and I think it has to do with Zachariah. He's Castiel's superior - the same superior who took away Castiel's authority, perhaps, in favor of putting URIEL of all angels in charge, because he thought that he was getting too close to Dean. And Anna seemed to know about it, though maybe not what it was, or she would have told Dean. So it's possible...maybe about where the orders are REALLY coming from?

3) It seems like Castiel not only prepared Jimmy to be possessed but had to wait to ASK him whether he could possess him. It's possible that without the human still in the body, without the human's willing cooperation, and angel cannot possess someone. You notice that Castiel also healed all of his vessel's wounds, a power most demons don't seem to have (or at least don't bother to exercise), considering poor human!Meg.

6) Not only did Castiel help Dean protect Sam, he has also been with Anna, a fallen, several times and taken no action against her. He has admitted that he has doubts and emotions. It's also possible that he answered prayer without permission - I don't think he's supposed to be Dean's personal angel so much as an angel that occasionally warns him of things. Lastly, he KILLED Uriel (or, well, Anna did, but it was very much Castie;'s fight). If I'm right that Zachariah is...not exactly pious (not in LEAGUE with him but perhaps using him as a tool or appreciating his efforts) then there might be consequences for that, as well.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
So it's possible...maybe about where the orders are REALLY coming from?

Oh, I like this! The big Heavenly Conspiracy Theory theory! Cas is the angel who knew too much! Someone should write this story!

I think you're definitely right about angels needing permission, which ties back into my theory that part of Castiel's motivation in using Claire was that he needed Jimmy to invite him back in.

I can buy that Cas was yanked upstairs because of a general pattern of disobedience, but I would then still want to know why he was taken now. The answer to which could I suppose be, "To stop him from delivering his message to Dean"...which then leads us back to, "But what was in that message?" Oh, frustratingly circular thinking is circular!

[identity profile] tikiaceae.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:04 am (UTC)(link)
I skimmed this because omg, I still have 1,000 more words to write for my essay that's due in... 8 hours, so I think I have a good excuse! Although I have no excuse for why I'm checking my flist at this crucial moment...

Anyway, just one thing! The tie! When Jimmy got all dressed up and the first thing I noticed was his tie. I was like, but it ain't crooked! And then he loosened it. Awesome.

Ok, one other thing! His hair! Did you notice Jimmy's hair when we first see him during the flashback scenes? It was all smoothed down and flat and WEIRD. And by the time we got the holy accountant look his hair was all awesome again.

Misha and Castiel and Jimmy are AWESOME.


OMG. Essay.

*slunks off*

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
The only thing I can conclude from Jimmy's hair is that 1) Angelic visitations give you that stylish mussed look, and therefore, 2) John Sheppard has been touched by an angel.

THE TIE. So awesome—I give you mad props for continuity, show!

Good luck on your essay! KICK ITS ASS!

[identity profile] prongsy.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
On point four (I have yet to finish reading, by the way, but I wanted to address this while it was fresh on my mind ^_^) - I don't know whether Castiel is inherently male OR whether it is our Western societal predilection to quantify things as masculine, especially when regarding Biblical/religious peoples. I mean, we presume all of the angels, especially the three named in the Bible (Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel), to be male and we bestow such names on our male children. In much the same fashion, God is depicted as male ("the father"), when by all accounts He really should be removed from our narrowed scope of sex/gender and be fully genderless. So, I don't know if Castiel has a gender, or if Jimmy is simply conforming to the patriarchal bias of the Westernized religion.

Or, maybe the writers were being lazy, and after having a male (Misha Collins) playing him so long, they just assumed the masculine pronoun in reference to him.
Edited 2009-05-04 03:10 (UTC)

[identity profile] prongsy.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:25 am (UTC)(link)
Ok, finished now, so here goes...

6 - I assumed the time bending mojo was only for special situations and ordained from Above, not just a fun trick they can do whenever. Castiel tells Dean in "In the Beginning..." that they needed Dean to know what they knew... meaning it's a plural, so most likely all of the Host. And Yellow-Eyes stressed that that was some pretty high up shit, so Dean must be well connected to be DeLorean-ing back in time.

Thus, I would actually go more with the latter of the two possibilities you presented. If Jimmy's blood is special and they knew this war was coming, then I'd be more apt to assume that Castiel had been prepping Jimmy for his use for a while. He says he thought Dean was special and could "perceive his true visage" only to find that he couldn't. So, maybe he was prepping Jimmy for something else and had to do a rush job in the end to visit Dean. Maybe when Jimmy was sticking his hand in the boiling pot and having his brain melt from the TV (see, parents always say it'll rot your brain XP), Castiel was also burning out Pamela's eyes and raining glass? I would say "not exactly the same time", but with Cas being part of the infinite, he could actually accomplish both simultaneously.

11 - What I find telling is that Dean never asked for Castiel to serve him. Sure, he pushes his will and doesn't follow Castiel's orders readily, but he never asked Cas to change himself and follow him. Castiel did that on his own. Thus, I find the phrasing interesting because I think it shows more of Castiel's feelings than Dean's. He found himself bending to Dean, "serving" him as it were, he was making a choice to do so. And we all know that choices alone are a no-no in Heaven... let alone one that takes his allegiances away. But, I find it funny that he declares that to Dean... Dean who never outwardly asked it of him. It was ALL Castiel there. ^_^

Random Timeline Tinkering

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[identity profile] kittymalloy.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
I think Castiel was hunted down because of the message....he was prevented from speaking to Dean. I'm wondering if it's the same thing Chuck wanted to warn them about but wasn't allowed to.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 04:23 am (UTC)(link)
I got the feeling that what Chuck saw may have been just general badness. But maybe not. The message is obviously key—I hope it doesn't turn out to be a MacGuffin, that we actually get to find out what it was.
ext_2677: (interpretive dance)

was a refreshing coke?

[identity profile] la-tante.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:25 am (UTC)(link)
wow you think super-thinky thoughts and though i have not much to say here, i wanted to reply just because you've made me think too! and i love that! posts like this always turn my brain on and make me wonder about all the connections and questions that are brewing. and yes this ep was incredibly awesome. this show has become incredibly awesome too. it was always enjoyable but now it's fabulous.

[identity profile] davincis-girl.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:25 am (UTC)(link)
Musings:
-Your number 10 is brilliant...and very sad.
-I know this is not the metaphor they were going for at all, but it kind of feels like mommy and daddy realized their son Cas was in love with his friend Dean, so they sent him to creepy Bible cure-the-gay camp. made me laugh.
-I agree that Castiel was not going to stay in Claire. I thought it was his way of guaranteeing Jimmy would return to be a consenting vessel through emotional blackmail.

[identity profile] blualbino.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:26 am (UTC)(link)
Well, some not-as-well-thought-out-as-the-actual-questions answers

1- I think that Castiel might have gotten wind of Sam's demon blood addiction, because there's no way that none of the angels knew about it, but (I think) it's pretty possible that the angels didn't tell Dean because it would effect some master plan they have.

2- I think Jimmy's Nephilim, mostly because whatever was up with Jimmy also effected his daughter, who would be Nephilim too. And, after some conversation with some one else (I cannot for the life of me remember who) Heaven might have forseen the need for Nephilim as vessels and sent angels to earth for that specific purpose

3- I have no idea. Maybe it's because his soul/essence/whatever is so foreign to Jimmy's body, that he needs Jimmy himself to keep it from falling apart. Maybe I have some idea...

7- WHAT IS THIS WHAMMY YOU SPEAK OF? I MISSED THE 'SOON' CLIP?

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 04:38 am (UTC)(link)
3. That was the only think I could think of, too, although it seems kind of fanwanky. Come up with something better, show!

7. The 'SOON' clip was in the version I downloaded! The key bit is this, though: Cas says, "Do you give yourself over wholly to the service of God and his angels?" And Dean replies, "Yes, I swear." And then Castiel puts his hand on Dean's forehead and, well, whammies him. There's glowy light and stuff. WHAT IS HE DOING TO DEAN?

[identity profile] kira-bouviea.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:33 am (UTC)(link)
Okay one... here are my general thoughts on this episode, not as awsome as yours but wth, right.

http://kira-bouviea.livejournal.com/47412.html#cutid1

Now as to your quesitons

1. Maybe that the corruption in the Angel ranks was a lot more widespread than they had thought?

2. I have no idea but I'm pretty sure that whatever is in Jimmy's blood is also in Deans' Castiel had assumed that Dean would have been able to see his true form and hear his true voice, I'm gonna assume that Hell damaged Dean in that regard, and Jimmy obviously could too.

3. I like to think that Castiel needs Jimmys approval, so that in the end he will be able to heal Jimmy. I think that Demons can't heal thier hosts becuase they haven't been given permission to use them. If an angel has permission then they will be able to do certian things with them, such as healing them. I wanted to think that it was a matter of respect, mutal respect, but we've all seen Uriel and he obviously had no respect for humans.

4. Well I'm gonna have to say this. I'm pretty sure that by the end of the episode that Dean is starting to like Jimmy, not as Castiel's host but as a good man. I'm pretty sure that if Dean and Jimmy met on the street and hunting was not in the picture at all, they could have maybe been friends. But this could stem from my need for Dean and Jimmy Pie!fic of the friendship variety. Jimmy, I think he could later identify with Dean's need to save his family (Sam), he's going to be able to identify with everything that Dean has sacrificed for his family, because that's essentially what Jimmy has done, he has sacrificed everything for his family. I think they could eventually come to respect each other and maybe become good friends. I hesitate to remark on any slashy relationship, because that epp slayed me and Jimmy needs to grieve for his family for a while, ya know what I mean.

5.I'm almost postive that Castiel never intended to stay in Claire. It sorta felt like a call back to "The Sacrifice of Issac" When God is asks Abraham to kill his son to show respect or devotion but right before it happens an angel stops him. It sort of felt like that but a little backwards. Castiel was offering Jimmy eternal rest, but would use his daughter as a vessle, instead Jimmy begged Castiel to "take me instead", I think that this was not only a test of Jimmy's character but of his faith as well. Now what I really want to know is, would Jimmy, if Claire had not been at stake, allowed Castiel to possess him again? My answer is yes, because Jimmy would have seen, now first hand exactly what Castiel and Dean (and the rest of them too) were fighting, he is all about family and he would have wanted to protect his family, even if it meant he would never see them again. (and clearly Dean sent the Novaks to Ellen, for mutal protection).

6. I really don't think I want to know. I have a theory that maybe they really horribly threatened all of Castiel's charges. Not Sam so much, because while Castiel obviously cares about Dean, if Sam becomes a danger, I think that Cas would let the heavenly host take him out. I'm almost positive (well as positive as I can be) that Dean and the Novaks, who Castiel had promised to keep safe, were thretened. I don't think with hell, but maybe they would have been barred from heaven?

7. I want to say that, if Dean has been damaged from hell, then Castiel is fixing that part of him. But maybe he gave Dean some sort of angelic powers that he could handle because of his blood. and why does everything in SPN come back to blood. I'm sure that whatever is special with Sam and Dean comes from Mary's side (YED in 4x3). I hope that it's nothing too damaging to Dean and that it lets him protect his mind from any Angel stalkers so that Dean and Castiel can talk in the Saftey of Dean's mind. IDK.

Great meta.

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:28 am (UTC)(link)
1. I think that that's a distinct possibility—or at least that Heaven hasn't been entirely honest about its goals re: the Apocalypse. Lots of people have chimed in about how, in the Bible, the End of Days is a part of God's plan—it's supposed to happen. So maybe they're not really trying to stop it at all, but to win it—no matter what the price for humanity?

4. I'm not sure if it's true that if Dean and Jimmy met on the street they would be friends. They don't really have much of anything in common (except, as you point out, a tendency to commit food porn). I don't think they would dislike each other, but I also think they wouldn't have a deeper-than-acquaintances relationship were they not brought together by special circumstances/mutual interests. And actually: I like that. Unlikely people being brought together: that's a good story!

7. Angelic powers is definitely something I am both gleefully and nail-bitingly anticipating. It could be fantastic to watch, but ultimately maybe not so good for Dean, you know? I keep falling back on the "In the war between Heaven and Hell, I'm on the side of humanity" line—and Dean is all about wonderful, messy humanity: lust and gluttony and sloth and all that jazz. Can you imagine Dean with all that taken away from him—as Heaven's perfect hammer? Yikes.

I'm sure that whatever is special with Sam and Dean comes from Mary's side

I love that, after three seasons of it being all about the Winchesters, we learn that nope, all the wacky-awesome actually comes from the Campbell side of the family. I'd love to see this played with more—I'd love to get some more of Mary, actually. 4x03 makes me think she's not the kind of person who'd go down so easily without a fight.

[identity profile] darkmagess.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:34 am (UTC)(link)
I think in answer to #4, for whatever reason, angels are gendered in this world. I say that only because Castiel said "good-bye sister" to one of the dead angels. And that sort of makes no sense if the angel inside didn't have a gender. If they weren't, why would he refer to the vessel's gender?

#10 I think was the most important moment in the episode, and I know that's saying a lot, but Dean's GUT reaction was OMG Sam is going to hurt me...

#11 seems kind of right to me actually. I think that's exactly what they did, but probably with more burning fury of Heaven. His program was corrupted and they needed to reprogram him. Or at least try. Whether they -actually- did or just make him think that it'd be a great plan to pretend they did is something we're going to find out.

#1 I agree that I think he was going to tell Dean what the monster at the end of the book is. That big secret of Zachariah's. A close runner up would be that he was going to tell Dean that Heaven was going to drag him back and to either be worried or just expect me to be different. But really, I think he was going to tell him the big secret.

Question 3: I know this sounds crazy, but maybe he doesn't want to murder his vessel. Not that he needs Jimmy's soul to be there... but maybe there are some limits to how cold and bloodthirsty angels will be? Probably giving them too much credit since they're willing to raze towns and all. But killing someone to take their meatsuit totally lacks in angel-like qualities.

#9 I think part of it was the shock that this innocent guy got shot. And I think part of it was the fact that this guy who looks exactly like his angel used to look got shot and was bleeding all over the place. And maybe if he'd thought about the fact that it wasn't Castiel he wouldn't have had that reaction, but Castiel's become a fixture of sorts in his life. And seeing what looks like him (because this is the only perception people have) being murdered is probably not that easy a thing. I think it was as much a gut reaction from him as the flinching from Sam was. I think his brain went: OMG, Cas got shot! And stopped right about there.

#5 I'm a bit sad that everyone calls him Cas now. I like Dean having something of his own.

#3 I think Jimmy calls them "boys" because of their lack of the trappings of adulthood, like permanent lovers and families. Also, I think it's simply possible that the writers and crew take on some of fandom's quirks. *WE* call them boys so they get used to referring to them that way and it creeps into their writing. This may also affect #5...

Can I also just point out how hugely amusing I find "Jimmy and Dean". I mean... take out the "and" and you have a sausage manufacturer, which is just a whole new level of wrong.

[identity profile] laughingacademy.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:47 am (UTC)(link)
2. What is in Jimmy’s blood that makes him special? Someone somewhere mentioned the idea that Jimmy might be descended from Nephilim, which is certainly an interesting thought.

The problem I have with that theory is that the SPN!verse has established that angels cannot let themselves be seen or heard by most people (even psychics — poor Pamela Barnes). So how would they manage sex with humans who aren't potential vessels? (Also, would this mean that Mary, Mother of God, was descended from the Nephilim?)

6. What did the team upstairs actually do to Castiel?

6 (a). And for how long? We know time passes differently in Hell than it does on Earth; is the same true for Heaven?

[identity profile] trinityofone.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 04:05 am (UTC)(link)
2. Erm. My flimsy grasp of theology fails me. I haven't a clue. Good point, though. Any alternate thoughts for what makes Jimmy so special? (Besides that he's pretty.)

6a. Heh, yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I have a tiny fic idea based around it, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get it down on paper before the next episode when I will surely be Jossed (or Kripke'd or whatever).

I knew it!

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[identity profile] nabichansaotome.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:48 am (UTC)(link)
Crazy theory? I think the Angels want the Apocalypsis to happen -to make us repent for our sins or perhaps they just hate us. It would explain why no one stopped Uriel during his revolution while it is no secret to Heaven that Castiel is being a bad angel and why he seemed so scared in the first place.

I, for one, think he is being cautious until he finds a way to make things better.

It would be cool, anyway ^_^;

[identity profile] polaris-starz.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 03:58 am (UTC)(link)
I've wondered something along the same lines, particularly because it baffles me that Uriel didn't fall after he turned traitor.

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[identity profile] anangelsdeath15.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, just saw this and I think I love you! HAHA!! I've watched the episode a handful of times but haven't really been able to wrap my head around it. So, thank you for helping me do that. Because I'm bored as hell, I went ahead and gave my two cents in regards to your questions. So, here goes:


1) I have a couple of theories. One is that he was going to tell
Dean the endgame (basically what Chuck saw) in order to warn him of things to come, which would probably result in Dean not
complying with the Angels anymore. Or he was going to tell Dean not to follow through with the Angels plans when it came
time to step up to the plate, because he knows that nothing good will come out of it, for Dean and/or Sam at least.

2/3) Ever since it was said that it was in his blood, I've been pretty certain that both he and his daughter are Nephilim or
descendants of Nephilim. It would make sense that the certain special people who can withstand the true visage of Angels has some sort of Angelic genes in their blood. This also would lend some credence to the theory that the demon blood
Azazel gave to Sam was setting the stage so that he may be able to withstand Lucifer. Kind of like blood types. Say you're
B+, then if you were to exchange blood with someone else of like blood then nothing will happen, but if your blood were to
come in contact with someone who is A- then it will kill you. So, if you're already in some part demon, then you'll be able to better withstand the power of another demon inside of you.

4) Why is it important for Jimmy to like Dean? My take was that he was indifferent towards him. They were telling him he either had to never see them again or die, so I wouldn't expect him to
form a close bond with either of them. Add to it that he was scared for himself and his family and just wanted to go back
to his normal life, they were baggage from his living Hell he'd endured for the past year. But when he isn't in control, Castiel is the one interacting and stuff, so why does it matter if Jimmy is okay with Dean when he won't be interacting much if ever again with him?

5) While it would have its advantages (small enough to easily
hide and tiny to escape without much trouble) he also had to know that fighting with bigger people, demons or Angels, would
be more difficult given that he would be half their size, even if he does pack a wallop. So does this mean that he manipulated
Jimmy into being stuck in his body for however long? That seems kind of cold...oh well, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it if
he didn't have to.

6) As for what happened to Castiel in Heaven, I have no clue. Some of suggested that maybe he was forced to live through a
multitude of horrible situations (probably involving Dean) to numb him of his emotions, or he was tortured into obedience.
And, if this is true, maybe he had to make a decision to follow his emotions or not and get tortured, and this is what finally
had him learning his lesson that he should do what is right by Heaven and not by Dean.

7) The whammy that Castiel is putting on Dean is, I think, giving him Grace. If Misha's little slip about something connecting
Dean getting powers with Anna, and what we saw in the clip/promo where Castiel has Anna captured, I'm guessing that he takes
Anna's grace from her and gives it to Dean. I also think this is what he was going to warn Dean about and tell him not to
pledge his allegiance. So, if this is the case, it should prove interesting for their dynamic and how he will feel about it
(Cas, not Dean...well, Dean too but Castiel mostly.)

[identity profile] kira-bouviea.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:12 am (UTC)(link)
Hummm... I didn't see that Castiel had Anna trapped. He did really?

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ext_3663: picture of sheldon cooper from the big bang theory sitting down and staring at leonard with a smug/gauging look (Default)

[identity profile] jennilee.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
Hi, I'm not sure how I originally got her e but I'm glad I did! I love reading spn meta even though I've only been n the fandom for about six days.

I have a quick question... is that "refreshing Coke" line a reference to something? I don't get why it's funny. I mean, it's not simply coke=cocaine, is it? Because Dean didn't know about Sam's addiction to demon blood at the time.

[identity profile] laughingacademy.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
I think its a reference to an old Coke slogan: "The Pause That Refreshes."

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[identity profile] dragon-fall.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
YAY!! I'm not the only whose watched this about a baker's dozen times :)

Most of your observations were things I've been slappinga round my brain for a while (I'm actually working on a icon for Dean's 'refreshing coke' line)
On your questions:

1. I think Cas was going to tell Dean about the demon blood thing, and that under no circumstances was he to allow Sam to go and kill Lilith. It brings me back to Zachariah at the end of 4x18. The angels have plans, I imagine, and those aren't in the best interest of either Sam or Dean, probably not the majority of humanity. Heaven and humanity seem to be mutually exclusive.

2. TEE HEE! I'm sure others have said it too, but I was one of the people that put forth Jimmy being descended from the nephelim. We know from the deleted scenes that actually finding a vessel that can hold an angel is difficult. My other theory (and gods save me from long fics based on shit I haven't read) is that maybe Jimmy was a descendent from Jesus himself ::cue Da Vinci Code!!!!) At the very least, maybe some of Mary and Josephs descendents.

3. Maybe because angels don't have souls, they have grace? All the demons we've seen have been damned souls, so maybe they can just slip right in, but angels might be missing something. And here's a question I'd love to kick around with someone cause I'm trying to write a fic about it. When Lu fell he took a third of heavens angels with him according to scripture, but we're told that only four angels have seen God. Does that mean that these fallen angels have just been bound in some way by their brothers and still have their grace? Can another angel actually remove it? Cas tell us that six of his brothers had fallen in 4x3, and if they only thing that can kill an angel is another angel, then we have some major league baddies that have yet to be revealed :::rubs hands in hopeful anticipation:::

4. Hmmm.... I thought that most of Jimmy's ire was directed as Sam, but maybe I'm wrong and just don't like Sam very much right now.

5.Jumping into the kid might have been an emergency move, but I think it might have been manipulative. It seems that angels have to be invited in, and I'm also sure Claire was praying pretty hard for help during the whole thing. Jimmy had to be willing to be the vessel for Cas to jump back in, which means our angel is still sneaky as all get out :)

6. Ah. I've been having an angelic version of Alistair dancing around my head all weekend. If angels are warriors, then like most military branches there have to be punishments for things like insubordination, and I'm thinking a few days in the brig isn't it. I'm guessing that it was a combination of Cas helping with Lilith and whatever he was going to tell Dean (maybe he just figured it out or was told as a test) made him get snatched back upstairs.

7. ANGEL!DEAN!!!!!

Sorry for the long answers, I just haven't had a chance to talk to anyone aboutt his for days now and I'm happy :)

[identity profile] kira-bouviea.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
If the only thing that can kill an angel is another angel....

Oh holy heck, I didn't think of that.

So maybe Lucifer and his angel cronies are still angles but not actually affiliated with Heaven (or Anna, cause she seems like a free agent -chaos, Anna/Trickster!), and they still have thier grace. they were just kicked out of heaven? Like being kicked out of a really nice resort? or club?

Angel!Dean for the goddamn win!

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[identity profile] entropy-maximum.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 06:09 am (UTC)(link)
I think you bring up some rather very interesting points, I however don't have much to input into the discussion but you have made me think more about the ep and that is a good thing. One thing I totally must have missed upon first watching the ep was Dean flinching from Sam when he thinks Sam is going to turn on him or something... i'd like a better look at that scene, do you know if anyone has posted it up on youtube or anything, like just that scene?
ext_131: (boomstick)

[identity profile] ladyyueh.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 06:26 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you for articulating your first observation. I realized it subconsciously, but it's always nice to recognize and flail over another reason to love Dean/Cas.

Also, re: your 11th observation. It strikes me as funny that he says that when, previously, he and Uriel had to follow Dean's orders. Which, I felt, was getting Dean ready to be a General in the war and, you know, be followed and obeyed. But I guess that thread was discarded?

Still, loved your meta. I too have watched this ep. many more times than is healthy.

[identity profile] grey-bard.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 07:03 am (UTC)(link)
And then there's always the possibility that Castiel knows that he is now under close watch, and is having to lay low and pretend he's learned his lesson for now, and not spend his credibility with the other angels on defiance for the sake of defiance.

Which sounds kind of sneaky, but with Castiel, that's not exactly a first...

[identity profile] 2naonh3-cl2.livejournal.com 2009-05-04 07:19 am (UTC)(link)
1) Agrees. I was actually seriously disturbed by how bland their interactions became.

5) I kept twitching every time Jimmy or Anna called him Cas. Anna hadn't called him Cas in the earlier episodes, and I was willing to let Sam slide since he always hears Dean calling him that...but really? It was so weird.

7) I loved what Mischa did with Jimmy! Not only the tiny arms, but he carried himself completely differently. His shoulders were more rounded, he looked smaller and less imposing, he blinked, and ohmygosh, you could see wrinkles on his forehead. All these little things, I didn't even notice the lack of, until this ep. Amazing. >.<

10) Creepy. Sam's face, and his crazy crazy eyes. But while I did notice the flinch, I hadn't been all that's surprised by it. I kinda expected that sort of behavior in Dean a lot earlier in the season, probably four or five episodes back.

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