Mffff I am so sorry for jumping into (or at the end of) your conversation... this is something I think about practically all the time (Castiel has colonised my mind)... I think 'Supernatural''s canon mythos is woven loosely enough that there are enormous spaces for exploration of so many things - what being an angel even means, the historical experience of these creatures who are apparently outside of time, what the nature of God is, what God's predicament is, what happens to souls in Heaven, how (eep, I think I'd love to read/write fic about Heaven and red tape, actually) the angelic hierarchy has evolved/will evolve after the end of Days.
What is really beautiful is... ok, suppose you (where 'you' can stand for 'Kripke', 'American viewers', 'viewers brought up within a framework where the very idea of religion is Christian', ' trinityofone ' , etc) reacted to Zachariah's "God is dead" moment in 4.22 with a kind of sympathetic horror - what does it mean for Sam and Dean? What does it mean for poor Cas on his poor doomed mission?? Within the universe of 'Supernatural' these are urgent, central questions. But.
Suppose I ask these questions:
1. Can we be certain that there is objective truth to the assumption/idea that these angels have ever had privileged access to God in the first place?
2. When Zachariah says, 'God is dead', what does that mean for me, as a Hindu viewer, who thinks of religion, spirituality and God in profoundly different ways? 2.a. Is there space for my worldview within the interstices of Spn's overtly Judaeo-Christian-centric one? 2.b. If yes, can I not write fic where Castiel realises that he fundamentally misunderstood the very nature of God? 2.c. Or, indeed, fic where the cultural politics of Spn's gods (The Trickster is revealed to be Gabriel - does this mean that the archangel possessed a pagan god? CREEPY) are explored. (Hi, Neil!)
3. Is it surprising that Castiel comes off as deeply human? That, in fact, all the angels come off as deeply human, exercising free will? How do we define 'human'? Isn't this a cognitive bias that almost every SF writer trying to invent an alien race has to negotiate? 3.b. Why must we honestly, literally believe what Anna said to Castiel in "Heaven and Hell", the implication that angels cannot (rather than 'should not') feel?
4. Would it not be perfectly in keeping with Spn's humanist bias if Castiel found happiness after his 'fall', as a human being? Do we not already see that Spn tells us that being human is better? 4.a. Is some or much of the fannish sadness about Castiel falling then actually about personal and cultural fears about death, about un-being, about the apparent greater validity of the immortal soul (not just for Christians, obviously)? 4.b. (You already addressed this, and I totally agree!) Couldn't we read the actual tragedy of 504!Castiel as Dean's inability to love Castiel (I always quote Auden's 'We must love one another and die' wrt 5.04), which leads to a loss greater, it might be argued, than the loss of belief in an omnipotent God? 4.c. Why cannot we have a God whose principle is love?
... I could go on. I have a little notebook full of chickenscratch philosophical queries and fic drafts/bunnies like that. But that was just a sample, some of the reasons why Spn has excited me so tremendously since s4 began, and why I think there should be a greater opening up of possibilities, of interpretations, and not a closing in, even as we inch (or shuffle) towards Spn's Apocalypse.
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Date: 2010-02-03 02:56 pm (UTC)What is really beautiful is... ok, suppose you (where 'you' can stand for 'Kripke', 'American viewers', 'viewers brought up within a framework where the very idea of religion is Christian', '
Suppose I ask these questions:
1. Can we be certain that there is objective truth to the assumption/idea that these angels have ever had privileged access to God in the first place?
2. When Zachariah says, 'God is dead', what does that mean for me, as a Hindu viewer, who thinks of religion, spirituality and God in profoundly different ways?
2.a. Is there space for my worldview within the interstices of Spn's overtly Judaeo-Christian-centric one?
2.b. If yes, can I not write fic where Castiel realises that he fundamentally misunderstood the very nature of God?
2.c. Or, indeed, fic where the cultural politics of Spn's gods (The Trickster is revealed to be Gabriel - does this mean that the archangel possessed a pagan god? CREEPY) are explored. (Hi, Neil!)
3. Is it surprising that Castiel comes off as deeply human? That, in fact, all the angels come off as deeply human, exercising free will? How do we define 'human'? Isn't this a cognitive bias that almost every SF writer trying to invent an alien race has to negotiate?
3.b. Why must we honestly, literally believe what Anna said to Castiel in "Heaven and Hell", the implication that angels cannot (rather than 'should not') feel?
4. Would it not be perfectly in keeping with Spn's humanist bias if Castiel found happiness after his 'fall', as a human being? Do we not already see that Spn tells us that being human is better?
4.a. Is some or much of the fannish sadness about Castiel falling then actually about personal and cultural fears about death, about un-being, about the apparent greater validity of the immortal soul (not just for Christians, obviously)?
4.b. (You already addressed this, and I totally agree!) Couldn't we read the actual tragedy of 504!Castiel as Dean's inability to love Castiel (I always quote Auden's 'We must love one another and die' wrt 5.04), which leads to a loss greater, it might be argued, than the loss of belief in an omnipotent God?
4.c. Why cannot we have a God whose principle is love?
... I could go on. I have a little notebook full of chickenscratch philosophical queries and fic drafts/bunnies like that. But that was just a sample, some of the reasons why Spn has excited me so tremendously since s4 began, and why I think there should be a greater opening up of possibilities, of interpretations, and not a closing in, even as we inch (or shuffle) towards Spn's Apocalypse.