Why is SGA fandom so segregated?

[trinityofone]

lavvyan! I got your package! Thank you so much, it's gorgeous. (To curious parties: it's a piece of papyrus with the Ancient Egyptian calendar on it.) Actually, the tube it came in is gorgeous, too. But I really want to try to get it framed. And this Treed Murray poster, which I keep saying I should treat myself to. (Hey, I have a new apartment and a new office to decorate here!) There has to be a cheap frame shop in existence somewhere...right?

I am incredibly, incredibly tired today. I was exhausted yesterday, and couldn't even make it through The Daily Show before I crashed. This is bad. I thought I was adjusting to my new work schedule, but I guess I'm not. Is there any way to train yourself to need less sleep?

One thing that has almost kept me energized has been the response to the SGA Bulwer-Lytton Contest. There are so many awesome and hysterical entries, it's going to be killer to choose. So I think I'll pick my--15? Is that how many entries an LJ poll allows?--my 15 or so favorites and let people vote on the Grand Prize Winner. Unless anybody has wild objections, I'll put that up tomorrow.

Like I said, the response has been incredible, and I've seen some new names (by which I mean: people I don't know, even by association, not "people who don't usually comment here"), which is always cool. But--and please correct me if I'm wrong--I still seem to be attracting mostly McKay/Sheppard people, or at least mostly slash people. Which in general makes sense, because hey, I write McKay/Sheppard, I talk about McKay/Sheppard, most of my friends are into McKay/Sheppard. As far as I'm concerned, McKay/Sheppard is for yay.

BUT. I like other pairings, too (my other fandom interest could possibly be described as McKay/women), and I think at least a little cross-pairing pollination is to be encouraged. My last fandom was BtVS/AtS, and it was wild, man. I mean, I started out a Spuffy shipper (Shut up! Their love was pure snarky and hot! At least before it became canon, anyway) but I liked the slash a lot (Buffydom was where I really grew to be comfortable with slash) and I wrote and read some of pretty much everything. It was all mixed.

Why is SGA so much more segregated? I mean, I don't think this is entirely a bad thing--I don't want my flist flooded with Sheppard/Weir stories, and I doubt the Sheppard/Weir shippers want a gazillion McKay/Sheppard stories on their friends pages, either. But is it just me, or is it extremely hard to organize activities that include all sides of fandom? Take reel_sga. The response to that has been great...but as pairings go, not very diverse. In terms of my personal reading habits, that's fine, but I had kind of hoped that there'd be more pairings represented. And maybe there still will be. That would be cool.

(Speaking of one nice bit of pairing diversity, I really loved this reel_sga entry: McKay/Ford art by deani_bean. It's the tie thing. That's awesome, and that transcends OTP-loyalty [and I say this as someone who is mockably OTPish at times]. Which is cool, no?)

Anyway, the Bulwer-Lytton thing is different, because of course it is not pairing-centric: it's mostly about mocking style and usage, although certain tropes have been fun to mock, too. It's about bad writing, but it's also about amusing and clever writing, and seeing what you can do in the space of a sentence. That's something everybody can appreciate, right?

So I guess what I'm wondering is, where are the het shippers? (Again, please correct me if they're around and I've just been too dumb to notice.) And I just don't mean, why aren't they here, responding to this--what is here is awesome, and I'm not like, demanding more people participate, omg. I just mean, I've been in this fandom for almost a year now--how have we managed not to interact at all? Of course, part of this may be me--I'm certainly not trolling john_elizabeth, because why would I want to? So I'm also not saying, "Sheppard/Weir peeps! Why aren't you over at mckay_sheppard? We've got a hot tub, come hang out!" Because seriously, why would they want to? But the fact that there's little-to-no crossover is just astonishing to me.

Maybe it's just that we have a situation that's more like X-Files fandom than Buffydom. Back in the old days, I was rabid about MSR, and I just didn't go anywhere near the slash. (Or Scully/Skinner, or whatever else there was.) I can't remember very well, but I think I was actively afraid of those unfamiliar corners of the net, and that included any of the projects "those people" may have been involved in. Of course, I think this may have had MUCH more to do with the fact that I was 14 than with my shipping preferences, but could there possibly be some connection? What I'd like to know is, do most people on the het end of fandom see even a name associated with slash and immediately go, "Avoid! Avoid! Avoid!"? Which, I hasten to say, would be totally their right. But I realize, I don't even know anyone over there that I could ask.

I'm not saying that there needs to be some sort of cross-ship dialogue, because I think those things tend to end in angry glaring at best. Possibly, just ignoring each other is the best way to avoid conflict, and I'm all for avoiding conflict. I'm just surprised there isn't some sort of neutral zone, some shaded area at the center of the Giant Venn Diagram of Fandom Life. Why do you think that is?

Comments

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

It's my experience that most fandoms are like this, actually; I think Jossverse shows may be the exception, because his characters don't just hover around each other for nine years, they actually *go for it*-- Willow dated Oz, Tara, and Kennedy, and had secred makeouts with Xander, who dated Cordy (who thought Angel was hot) and Anya, and Anya did Spike, who did Buffy, who also did Parker and Riley, who Xander was kind of gay for...

If they'd stayed static, with Willow mooning over Xander, who mooned over Buffy, who mooned over Angel, for SEVEN YEARS, I bet BTVS fandom would be just as codified as most other fandoms are. You'd have your Willow/Xander shippers vs. Xander/Buffy shippers vs. Buffy/Angel shippers and that would be *it*, you know?

[cereta.livejournal.com]

What she said. I think SGA is actually more representative of fandom as a whole, or at least of my experience with it. The cross-pollination in particular of slash and het is relatively new, I think.

[neery.livejournal.com]

It might be because Weir is such an unpopular character in vast parts of fandom. If my favorite character was despised by what sometimes looks like the majority of the fandom to me, and my OTP scoffed at, I'd make sure to stick to my own safe little corner of the net, too. It's just no fun to keep stumbling over posts talking about how much they dislike your favorite things.

I think that's also the reason why there's much more cross-pollination with the Cadman and Teyly het-shippers -- she's a mch more popular and accepted character. I can think of quite a few slashers who have also written Teyla or Cadman with one of the boys, or Teyla threesomes, why I couldn't think of any Elizabeth stories at all (partly because I tend to avoid those like the plague -- might as well be honest about my tiny part in the great fandom divide).

I also think the het shippers are just that much more rare in this fandom than in many others, because there are too few awesome female characters who also have UST with the boys -- Teyla/Ronon, the best-represented het pairing as far as I know, is also the only one I can see at all in this show. It's far easier to ship the women of Buffy or Farscape, IMO.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Quality. Well I tried to do that with the databurst (http://shusu.livejournal.com/tag/databurst), before its discontinuation. Like, this past week-and-a-half, my porn category was five het fics to eight slash fics. So in my humble opinion the quality of the fic is *there*. Even if we're having trouble locating it.

Porn? One might have to throw in porn vs. romance as another factor, because I can't stomach certain characterizations of John bowing to a romance plot, het or slash, while I'm sure some people wouldn't care for my fics where it's forget the fingers let's get the sex over with already.

Go Rodney. I'd also like to put forth the theory that Rodney is the neutral zone, all on his own. ^^ I dunno, how many of us slashers are all for the Rodney/Teyla? Is it just me? John as a character seems to be polarizing, to say the least.

Previous fandoms. HP. Nuff said.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Hmm, okay. I mean, my experience is fairly limited--three big fandoms and a few reeeeeeeally small ones--so I might be wrong in thinking that SGA is the exception and not the rule. In fact, I think you're right that a far more unconventional show like BtVS or AtS would be more likely to spawn the more unconventional fandom.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

(((Also, Lorne/Novak? DELIGHTFUL. OMG.)))

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Right. I mean, it's also all about perception. People probably think of me as a John/Rodney 'shipper because my two most popular stories in the fandom have been J/R, but I have to say that sometimes I like Elizabeth/Ronon, Rodney/Ronon, Rodney/Radek, John/Teyla and/or John/Ronon even more than John/Rodney. And I *write* mostly gen.

[neery.livejournal.com]

I'm just surprised there isn't some sort of neutral zone,

But don't you think sga_noticeboard is kind of our neutral zone? That's where most of the different genres of the fandom seem to collide pretty peacefully -- writers, vidders, icon-makers, hetters and slashers. I've never seen any wank between the different groups, either.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Oooh, that's an interesting point there, too. Why do you think there are more fans who (publicly) like both slash and het now than there used to be? Because even I vaguely remember a time when the term "slasher" seemed to mean someone who only liked slash. I consider myself a slasher, definitely--I'm sure everyone who reads this journal is shocked!--but I still really love het, too. Is that more common than it used to be? Are we actually blending?

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

I play both sides of the fence, as you describe. I'm pretty gen, but I'll read slash of all pairings, het ship of all pairings. I also write both het and slash. I'm completely bi...erm...bifanular?

I just wrote my first Atlantis slash, and it did happen to be John/Rodney because it fit the subject matter. However, in SGA, as in Star Trek, I have no real "OTP".

[setissma.livejournal.com]

I think it's maybe the relatively small number of characters. Like, you really don't *have* that many pairings to work with, so the ones that are plausible and make sense tend to rise to the top, and if there are only one or two, it divides out, really, cos you like one or the other better.

I was (am?) in Harry Potter, too, which is the complete opposite - most mix and match fandom ever, and though some people are rabid shippers, most people are like, eh, she works with more than one person.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I compiled databursts almost exclusively from the noticeboard members.

[roaringmice.livejournal.com]

Absolutely true. It's easier to write for characters that have something behind them, that feel real to their reality, even if they aren't to ours. Usually in SciFi, that means the male characters get written, the female don't. Because the writing of female characters on SciFi shows sucks.

The difference is Joss Whedon: Buffy and Firefly both had female characters that felt like people, not like "women written by men". There was more there to latch on to and play with.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Go Rodney. I'd also like to put forth the theory that Rodney is the neutral zone, all on his own

I must disagree. One of the problems I've had with the Sheppard/Weir I've run across is that a lot of them range from Rodney-neutral to actively anti-Rodney. Intellectually I have no problem with that -- heaven knows he's not the *easiest* guy around -- but emotionally I may, perhaps, be a wee bit invested. *holds fingers up close together* ahem.

I think John is polarizing in that different fan groups are struggling for his affections, but Rodney is polarizing in love him/hate him kind of way.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

And also, my perception of SGA is that even the people who seem very devoted to their OTP will sometimes step outside their comfort zone, even if it's only to write a Their OTP/Someone Else threesome-- the other week harriet_spy and I were trying to think of well-known John/Rodney authors who had *never* written gen, or any other pairing, and the only person we could come up with was resonant8.

(Which is funny to me, because in Due South where for YEARS it seemed like people never wrote anything but their one OTP *ever*, Res was part of the first group of people who started being all bifictional-- Ray/Ray and Turnbull/Kowalski and Ray/Ray/Thatcher and all kinds of stuff.)

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Usually in SciFi, that means the male characters get written, the female don't. Because the writing of female characters on SciFi shows sucks.

Hm, but is that really the case on SGA? Not that it's the bestest most feminist show ever, but we know far more about Elizabeth's background and life on Earth, for instance, than we do about John's. And I think Teyla is a very strong character.

[strifechaos.livejournal.com]

I see your point and have thought about the diversity in the fandoms before. There isn't much of it yet in SGA, especially when compared to Angel/Buffy.

I think that it might have to do currently with the amount of time that both have been airing. Stargate Atlantis is still fairly new while Buffy/Angel have been on for years; people have been Buffy-fans for a while longer than SGA-fans. They've had time to write/read, find pairings and characters they prefer. Challenges and groups have formed for seasons, people that like Willow might have been het writers from her few seasons of hetro-ness and then stuck with her when she became a couple with Tara, crossing into the slash genre for example.

There’s more canon to mess around with I guess is what I’m getting at.

Which reminds me of my other point for why SGA lacks variety, there haven’t been a lot of “new” characters. We have the main players and then some minor characters that have stuck around for an episode maybe two before they're totally left behind in canon. Though I suppose you could do crossover with SG-1 if you needed more characters, but I digress.

There's also the fact that people like seeing certain characters together and haven't likened to the idea of dipping their toe in a different pond yet.

I know I tend to reluctantly read other pairings but generally stick pretty much with John and Rodney. Though I still tend to read slash even then, Rodney and Ronon or "McShep" with Beckett.

I'm not sure if it's just because I just don't read het that much anymore or if it's just because the only strong female characters we have in SGA are Elizabeth and Teyla, neither of which who I care to read paired with the characters I'm generally interested in reading about. I'm not sure if that's just me or other people haven't warmed up to Weir and Teyla as well. (It's like I don't mind them being a supporting character in the story---I actually like it but as neither is a favorite I don't look out for stories about them.)

Which isn't to say I would be averse to seeing some het, if it's well written I'm up for anything.

So maybe all we need is time and a few new characters (Chuck and Lorne screen time are never bad! *grins*), but I like the idea of a neutral zone for just sharing the fandom love. *grins* Maybe I'll have to go check out john_elizabeth and see if they're hot tub is as cool as ours?

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Oooh, that's interesting. I was just thinking in terms of the het/slash overlaps... and in terms of entrance drugs, if I may use my pimping slang.

Do you think it's a function of characterization? Well, not "are we watching the same show" because that's thorny and I'm not real sure about the show writers sometimes... but more in the sense that we use certain characters to fulfill certain plot functions, and that might run counter to how other people use them?

Like, to pull out an untested hypothetical, is using Rodney as comic relief different in a het fic than a slash fic? Even if he's not involved in the main pairing? I dunno, just thinking aloud.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

That's another issue I forgot to mention. I adore sga_noticeboard, but am I wrong in thinking that it's a little slash-dominated? (Er...not that there's anything wrong with that. *g*) Or is it just that the LJ side of the fandom is slash-dominated?

Pardon my incoherence, I haven't slept for about40 hours

[http://users.livejournal.com/_lemon_lyman_/]

I was just discussing this same thing with a Teyla/Weir shipper I pointed in the direction of your last post (I hadn't noticed till she pointed it out). While I read almost exclusively McShep, I think this is because I'm often too lazy to search for good fic in other pairings. In McKay/Sheppard it is just there. There is so much, you needn't search through as much badfic to find the good. I actually ship most everyone where SGA is concerned; McKay/Beckett, Beckett/Teyla, Sheppard/Teyla, Sheppard/Weir, Zelenka/Weir, Weir/Teyla and on and on. They're even mostly het pairings. Those're just so much less common (and I dunno why that is) that it's less work to just read McKay/Sheppard, so I do. I think for whatever reason, when the best writers all gravitated to one pairing, a vast majority like myself converted for the sake of the fic, causing the other pairings to sort of feel a need to separate off and do their own thing.

[neery.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I think the whole fandom is somewhat slash-dominated, simply because there are many more interesting male characters than female.

[shetiger.livejournal.com]

*pimps gate_bitextual for the hell of it*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I love Teyla. (And I think that may be due more to Rachel Luttrell than to the writers, but the same could be said of John and Joe Flanigan.) I wish there were more Teyla fic. Or really, more Rodney/Teyla fic. Er.

But yes, I do think there are interesting female characters on SGA. I'd include Cadman in there, too.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Unipolar system given John/Rodney. ^^ But that's not to say the little satraps don't exist. There are a lot of slash pairs that get next to nothing compared with het pairs.

The LJ thing, though, that's interesting. I find the coolest John/Elizabeth off the grid, as it were. I despair of a better way of finding them.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

But places like ff.net are very het dominated. And I don't know, what even goes on at Gateworld? Avoid! Avoid! Avoid! *g*