(no subject)

[trinityofone]

1. Character bashing is never a good idea. It’s just…tacky. And I’m not saying, “Don’t say anything negative!” I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out the difference between saying, “What Character X did there bugged me, it was stupid” and “Character X is a stupid bitch.”

2. Character bashing for the “preservation” of a ship is an even worse idea. Besides being petty and ugly, it’s just plain unnecessary. The existence of Character X or Character X’s relationship with Character Y doesn’t actually stop anyone from writing fic about Character Y and Character Z screwing each other seven ways from Sunday. And even if Character X and Character Y get married in canon and have 27 babies, that shouldn’t stop anyone from writing AU fic where Character Y and Character Z screw seven ways from Sunday, or non-AU fic where Y gets a babysitter so Y and Z can screw some more.

3. Bashing female characters who “interfere” with slash ships is especially bothersome. First, there’s the misogyny inherent in the idea that this evil woman who’s getting between our boys must be stopped. Second, as I already said, the idea that the existence of this female character can actually interfere with what we write/draw/vid is ludicrous. Canon and fandom: these are separate spheres, guys. What we do and what TPTB do have no effect on each other whatsoever. (Okay, little effect—if TPTB suddenly turned all the characters into elves, there would be more fic where they were elves. There would also be plenty of elf-denial fic. Fandom rolls on.)

4. Personally, since I know that my slash ship is never going to happen onscreen—that none of them are (well, maybe House/Wilson. MAYBE)—I am fine with there being onscreen romances for characters, as well as offscreen ones in my head. It’s the same separate spheres idea: I like to enjoy both. Now, obviously, no one is obligated to love every single thing that happens in a show’s canon. If Zelenka died, for example—omg, would I be upset. Or, to move a little closer to what everyone knows this post is about (I am tired of being coy)—if TPTB decided that John and Rodney were no longer friends—if all of a sudden, everything onscreen suggested that they hated each other—god yes, I would be pissed. But that’s not what’s happening here. If anything, their friendship is being shown as stronger than ever. If anything, there is more glorious team love going around than there has ever been before. Which just makes everyone hating on Keller like this so much more disingenuous. We were just given an episode that was SLASH GOLD. Why can’t we focus on that, instead of being needlessly nasty about a smart, awkward, geeky, interesting female character who has the GALL to like Rodney McKay? You know, like we do.

5. I like Keller. I relate to Keller. Do you have to? No. But this outpouring of hate toward her seems to me like confirmation of what people—people with whom I usually disagree—say when they call slash fans misogynistic. When I read post after post of Keller-loathing (and I finally just stopped reading episode reactions, because in so many cases I wasn’t finding squee, but bile), it feels to me that we are hating on ourselves. That we are hating on women. I am sure you could bring me individual case after individual case that proves me wrong, but I would just like to ask all of you to think a bit before you write more about how Keller isn’t good enough for Rodney or he’d have to be mentally unhinged to like her or how she’s too whiny or awkward (and Rodney’s not?) or pushy or controlling (and John’s not?). Is it really necessary to bring her down in order to make John and Rodney love each other? No, it’s not.

6. Jennifer Keller does nothing to hurt or harm McKay/Sheppard. But I think these reactions toward her—this attitude—really does. It makes me less likely to want to participate in John/Rodney discussions or read John/Rodney fic. It takes something that’s supposed to be about love—because isn’t that what shipping is? Rooting for love? (Okay, and sex)—and makes it about knocking relationships—and people—down instead of building them up. I don’t want to be a part of that. And I would like to think we’re better than that.

Comments

[springwoof.livejournal.com]

::applause::

I think McKay/Keller is kinda cute, actually. They're well-matched, and look like they could be friends as well as lovers.

However, in the defense of folks who don't like it, the way the ship was presented in the recent ep was weird and awkward and poorly written. Why can't the SG writers write a male/female love interest relationship *at least* as well as they write the male/female friendships on the show (not to mention the male/male friendships)?

[slvrbld747.livejournal.com]

This is true. I don't want to bash Keller either. Sometimes I really like her. But the writer's have a history of the seesawing female characterizations that really irritates me. Worse, they abuse the whole cast for a cheap laugh, usually Rodney. I was delighted that we actually got to laugh with him instead of at him in this episode.

Case in Point; the Chief Medical Officer washes a mysterious sticky substance off her hands into the sink, possibly contaminating the whole water supply, and then leaves without getting herself or mysterious substance checked out, sigh. Problem is they've done this to each and every character, let's make our character stupid to move my plot along instead of thinking of up something sharper, or more well reasoned. Yes, people make stupid mistakes, and yes, this should occasionally be high lighted. But this expedition is touted to have some of the best and brightest, the mistake crutch is over used IMO. -SB

[polaris-starz.livejournal.com]

The only reason I dislike the Keller/McKay storyline is because I really adored the Ronon/Keller they set up last season; I thought it was sweet and would have liked to see more of it. But I don't dislike Keller; I think she's an interesting, fun character and I like that they're doing things with her, and I certainly think she has more chemistry with Rodney than Katie did.

[trie-squid.livejournal.com]

*points*

That's it exactly. Keller/Ronnon were dorky, sweet, and awkward together and it was completely too cute!

And Rodney and Keller definately have way more chemistry and are nearly as dorky as Ronon and Keller, but not quite.

[clayeer.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen The Shrine yet (international episode releases :() but I have been getting the vibes of Keller Hate and that makes me very sad.

But I have also been getting vibes about just how much everyone loves this episode and that makes me very excited.

I love Keller. I feel like she's a part of the team and I want the team to be happy. ALL of the team.

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

I don't hate Keller. And I certainly don't hate Jewell Straite; I think she's adorable. But I do dislike what I felt was crappy writing, poor characterization, illogical and sudden changes in behavior. I actually feel sorry for poor Keller because her behavior was, imo, unprofessional and pretty stupid. She could -- and should -- be written so much better.

If that's bashing her? Well, I don't think it is, but YMMV.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I think everyone on SGA could, at one point or another, have been written better. (Probably especially the women, it's true.) I think the dots could have been connected slightly better in 'The Shrine,' but I do not think Keller's behavior was out of line in that episode. And I've seen Rodney's obvious affection for her starting many episodes back. You're right: YMMV.

However, I haven't in general seen people say, "I think Keller made mistakes in 'The Shrine.'" That's totally reasonable; I thought everyone came down with a chronic case of stupid in 'Coup d'Etat,' for example. It's more that people are suddenly saying (seriously emphasis on the suddenly), "I hate Keller and everything about her and everything she's done and she's clearly just John and Rodney's beard and he'd have to be stupid to like her." And that tumbles into bashing, IMO.

I should note—I am not reacting to anything you said in particular, just a lot of episode reactions and posts in general. If anyone feels singled out, that's not my intent, and I am sorry.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

I dislike Keller for the characters own merits. McShep will never be on the show, McShep isn't and will never be the writers intentions and it's not why I watch it. Liked Katie Brown, didn't mind the concept of Larrin even if the execution was a bit shaky, so I don't think I'm being defensive over a ship that will never sail.

Misogyny or misplaced jealousy is a sucky reason for disliking a character, but sometimes a character will tank with some viewers for various reasons that aren't necessarily about projection.

But I'm glad you like the character, and I'm glad the shows direction is working out for you because I wouldn't want anyone to lose their enjoyment over something. Keep the squee alive. :)

[alizarin-nyc.livejournal.com]

We were just given an episode that was SLASH GOLD.


WAIT, WAIT! People are upset about stuff in that ep? Thinking it *wasn't* slash gold??? I am confused. I thought that was one of the slashiest eps I've ever seen! Whoa, dude.

[twelve-pastels.livejournal.com]

Seriously, am I the only one who thought "OMFG HOT KINKY GEEKY THREESOME FTW!!!" when I saw this episode? Don't tell me this fandom isn't kinky enough, 'cause I know that's a lie. Come on, it would be slightly awkward and incredibly awesome nookie, and y'all totally know that Jennifer would get off on watching John get his brains fucked out by Rodney.

So I'm a positivist. So sue me.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Haha, yes: anyone who wants to solve this problem with a lovely joyful threesome, I am always pro.

[cincodemaygirl.livejournal.com]

Well said, ma'am! <3

[taurenova.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

I've been thinking the same sort of thing - but I've not had the time or the eloquence to put it down in words. So, thanks, Trin!

(Also - it was a bit heavy-handed, to be fair, but it's something I can equate to the wobbliness of early Jack/Ianto in Torchwood Season One. I see exactly same thing with McKay/Keller. Nothing for, like, 7 episodes and then BAM! Stopwatch porn. I feel like saying to the SGA fans: What are you, new? It's the major problem with multiple writers, at the end of the day, it's always going to happen unless they all collaborate over what's happening in each other's episodes)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly: SGA has never exactly been known for its graceful plotting. Personally, I'm really psyched that we might get to see two actual characters in a relationship, instead of one main character and someone else who's really only a plot device (see Katie and Kanaan, sadly).

[(Anonymous)]

I wish people who want Ronon/Jennifer would realize that the actor doesn't want it so why push it on the actor? He has shown many times he has no interest in it. That alone says Rodney/Jennifer is a positive. I mean the actor is forced to wear a wig and now he has to be forced to have his characer in a relationship he doesn't want?

[amuckgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm so happy that there are people that have the same view of this as I do. I like Keller, I like her with Rodney and I find it stupid that slash fans somehow hate anything or anyone that "gets in the way" of a ship that has zero to very little chance of happening in the show anyway.

[general-jinjur.livejournal.com]

yes, nicely said.


also: elf-denial. awesome.

[sobelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I think EVERY episode could be/has been written better by fan-writers. The show's writers have disappointed me in all manifestations... from Gen to Het (and slash of course =)

It annoys me to no end that female characters on SGA have regularly been given such hackneyed scripts, Keller most especially of late. It's like she's caught in some weird tug-of-war between writers...

Re: the Shrine? as someone else (way smarter than me) pointed out? When Rodney made his declaration to Keller? it was way early in his disintegration... whereas his "calling out" to John happened much later...after he forgot he wasn't supposed to be "gay". =)

While mostly I'm a McShep OTP'er? I ultimately am ONLY gonna get that from fanfic... certainly NOT the show.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

It annoys me to no end that female characters on SGA have regularly been given such hackneyed scripts, Keller most especially of late.

Everyone gets hackneyed scripts. It could be argued that the women are in general written less well than the men, but I don't think that justifies so much negativity. I mean, you don't see hate like what's been going around for Lorne, and he's written pretty shoddily. (Painting, WTF?)

Re: the Shrine? as someone else (way smarter than me) pointed out? When Rodney made his declaration to Keller? it was way early in his disintegration... whereas his "calling out" to John happened much later...after he forgot he wasn't supposed to be "gay".

I think whoever said that was joking. It's a funny joke. But the idea of taking it seriously bothers me. You could just as easily argue that Rodney loved Jennifer when he was more in his right mind, and only went to John when he wasn't. I know you're not deliberately doing so, but once again this is a (minor) example of bringing one character/relationship down to boost another one up. All I'm saying is, it makes me uncomfortable. :\

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm kind of glad I don't generally read ep reviews outside my flist, because that does suck, and I'm sorry it's been harshing your squee. I've seen a lot of "bwuh?" posts, and mine was one of them, because I think mainly the tag was crappy storytelling - you don't go from sharing a drink and a fruit cup to heartfelt confessions of love, I'm sorry, throw us a fricking bone if you want us to buy into this storyline - but I certainly don't approve of bashing the character. I'm hoping, if they do go ahead with this, that they actually show her the way she was with Rodney in Trio - not taking his crap, giving back as good as she got, because I think that's the kind of relationship that works best for Rodney and anyone crazy enough to want to have a relationship with him. But I certainly don't think that canon Rodney/Jennifer is going to harsh my Rodney/John love. (I don't know, I get this feeling that with Torchwood and other shows with canon gay now, that people think their slash should be *easy* - come on, folks, we can work with this! That's why it's called subtext, 'kay?)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I understand a bit of bwuh—SGA is never terribly good with the emotionally sensitive or consistent writing, is it? I just assume (as I assumed that John and Rodney hung out and played games all the time before TPTB actually finally put it onscreen) that more went on between them that we weren't privileged to see. ;-) I also hope they they develop it more, with yes, lots and lots more interaction like there was in 'Trio.'

people think their slash should be *easy* - come on, folks, we can work with this! That's why it's called subtext, 'kay?

Hee! Yes. I mean, I would love to live in a world in which gay relationships are just as likely to happen on TV as straight ones—and maybe we will someday soon! But for now, realistically, let's keep things...well, realistic. SGA is not going to be the show to go there, it's just not that cool. But its subtext is glorious.

[morebliss.livejournal.com]

This is kinda dis-jointed as my brain is not very with it today. But I had to say I totally agree with you.

#4 is what really gets me. There's no way we're going to get Rodney and John getting engaged, snogging, and flying off into the sunset in a puddle jumper ala the end of Grease on the show. Sadly ;)

Besides, we all know what's *really* going on. Right? I mean, giving your best mate your leather jacket to wear while you sit outside drinking beer in the middle of the night actually means that they're engaged in some Pegasus Galaxy cultures. And that's the way they show how much they care about each other.

Also, if we get more shots of either John or Rodney snogging people, I'm all for it.

Also, also, it's possible to be in love with different people at the same time for different reasons.

And I totally adore Keller, and think her & Rodney are cute together. I'm especially for it if we get more jealous John. ;)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

There's no way we're going to get Rodney and John getting engaged, snogging, and flying off into the sunset in a puddle jumper ala the end of Grease on the show. Sadly

However, I challenge anyone and everyone to write that fic! ;-)

if we get more shots of either John or Rodney snogging people, I'm all for it.

Yes, exactly! How is there any bad there? More kissing and hugging in general, I say.

it's possible to be in love with different people at the same time for different reasons.

Yes again! Rodney's feelings for Jennifer do not in any way diminish his feelings for John. And, you know, combined with what you said about jealous!John... I actually have this vague idea where John sees what's going on between Rodney and Jennifer, and he fights with himself because he knows that Rodney doesn't really have enough confidence to pursue it, doesn't think Jennifer would react favorably. But John knows—and is still the only one who knows—that Rodney and Jennifer were together in the alternate timeline, so finally he decides to do the right thing and come clean. So Rodney and Jennifer get together and are very happy and John's all stiff-upper-lip and resigned to being Cool Uncle John and whatnot.

But then they all move to Berkeley and embrace polyamory and live happily ever after. Or something.

See? So many possibilities!

[blueraccoon.livejournal.com]

I'm not thrilled about Rodney/Keller mostly because I don't have a whole lot of love for Keller in general. I think she's poorly written, unqualified to be the CMO, inconsistent, and--as we saw in 5x06--willing to let a patient die because she's too bullheaded to think something might work that didn't come from her or her ideas. I really didn't have much happiness with her this past episode.

But. That has nothing to do with the potential relationship. If they make it work...well, we'll see. I'm reserving judgment on that one.

And yes--pure slash gold, this ep. Just wonderful.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Okay, respecting that fact that everyone has the right to feel however they want about a character, I wildly disagree with that assessment of Keller. Forgive me for picking it apart, but:

I think she's poorly written

More so than anyone else? People keep saying this, but I think she's better fleshed out than a lot of characters people love. (Lorne! Chuck! I could go on.)

unqualified to be the CMO

Why? What has she done that suggests she's unqualified? She hasn't created a retrovirus that was morally incredibly iffy and also resulted in John turning into a bug, like Carson did.

inconsistent

How so? I can't think of an example.

willing to let a patient die because she's too bullheaded to think something might work that didn't come from her or her ideas

To me, it seemed like she was unwilling to risk her patient's life for something that—if it worked—would only grant him a 24-hour stay of execution. Instead, she was still trying to come up with a permanent solution.

I just feel like a lot of people's reasoning for disliking Keller has more to do with ingrained ideas about gender roles or knee-jerk reactions to her "coming between" Rodney and John. I'm not saying this is the case for you. I just wish everyone would pause and reconsider for a moment where some of these reactions might be coming from.

[sage]

*uses subtext icon just for you*

I also really like Keller and think it's nice to see Rodney have feelings for her. I mean, he and she are friends, right? Men and women are allowed to be good friends and love each other dearly without it fucking up their romantic relationships. And plenty of queer people have dated friends as beards for their real relationships.

But as to the rest of your post, YES. It's something I've been trying to work against in Due South for the last several *years*. The female characters on the show are awesomely lovable and respectable in their own ways (depending on the writer) and are uniformly victims of shoddy writing. They have a will, they have priorities, they have their own lives totally apart from the two male leads. So they can totally go off and do things THEY want to do that leave the guys free to be slashed silly. It isn't a problem. *g*

*hides from reading more ep reviews*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I also really like Keller and think it's nice to see Rodney have feelings for her. I mean, he and she are friends, right? Men and women are allowed to be good friends and love each other dearly without it fucking up their romantic relationships. And plenty of queer people have dated friends as beards for their real relationships.

Not to get all crankypants on you, but dismissing Jennifer as Rodney's beard kinda bugs me, too. It reduces her to a prop. I don't think we need to do that to rejoice in slashy goodness, either.

Digging the icon, though. :)

[slvrbld747.livejournal.com]

Plus, What about a threesome? I mean, no, not my first choice, because I love my McKay/Sheppard steamy, romantic, in-love sex. But let's face it, Sheppard has had close relationships with women, and while I think the guy is totally in love with Rodney, Yeah! I could see him relating to Keller if for no other reason than she digs Rodney, not that there couldn't or wouldn't be some initial jealousy, but, shrugs. You should add to the people you love, not subtract them, ever. I think that's a lesson the Pegasus galaxy delineates quite clearly. I could really see them sharing him, and let's face it. Rodney is high-maintenance. It would probably take both of them just to keep up with him, grins. -SB

[smittywing.livejournal.com]

Well-said, you. The Cameron-bashing was my biggest reason for leaving House fandom. I just couldn't stand one more post on why she was obliterating feminism everywhere and hooking her up with House would ruin the show and everyone would stop watching. (And, um, yeah, I may have had a few overidentification issues there. Not on crushing on the boss, but a lot on the way she was portrayed as "out of place", etc.)

I haven't done an episode review yet, but my encapsulated view is pretty much that I have no problem with Jennifer as a person. I have a bit of a problem with TPTB because we've already seenthe Rodney/Katie, and I was a huge fan of the Ronon/Jennifer before there even was Ronon/Jennifer. Also, I would like it to be Ronon's turn for a storyline that exceeds, "Hey, my people kinda suck now and I am suffering at the hands of a Wraith." (Haha, see my pun there? It was incredibly cheap. Sorry.) :P I think I just got incredibly attached to the idea of seeing his softer side on Atlantis. Alas.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I never got the Cameron hate either, and it was one of many reasons that House fandom and I could never be. *sob, sob* She's never been my favorite, but she's messed up and difficult and interesting—just like everyone else on that show. But again, it's like the fact that she had the nerve to act on the fandom's desires (trying to get with House, the minx!) made people want to trash her for some reason. *doesn't get it*

I wish Ronon could be given more diverse storylines, in general (Teyla, too). I'm overjoyed at the idea of Rodney canonically getting some love that doesn't end ridiculously, though. I think I've just decided that Ronon and Elizabeth had a secret passion which has had several roadblocks tragically thrust in its path, but that Ronon hasn't given up—will never give up— Someone should write this for me, don't you think? ;-)

[katydidmischief.livejournal.com]

What always amuses me about character bashing is this: slashers, diehards for their ship, find ways around canon relationships constantly, yet when a heterosexual relationship comes up, people get rabid. Any other instance - a possible heterosexual relationship, characters saying outright things about what they like in a partner - there's an explanation for it. But once it becomes canon? Flip outs.

[sol-se.livejournal.com]

AMEN! Yes to everything.

[trie-squid.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

You've hit it on the head.

[sardonicsmiley.livejournal.com]

This. All of this. You just said everything I've been thinking, except nicely and in a way that made sense.

And, especially in regards to point six? I know that I, personally, stopped readng all tags for this episode, because the of the bashing in the first few I was unlucky enough to stumble upon.

[darsynia.livejournal.com]

And, especially in regards to point six? I know that I, personally, stopped readng all tags for this episode, because the of the bashing in the first few I was unlucky enough to stumble upon.

Me, too. I feel like I need to run them through a filter of someone who reads them for me and decides 'okay, you won't want to read this one,' 'you can read this one.'

[ninasis.livejournal.com]

Reading some of the episode reactions the past few days, I had serious flashback to last season Supernatural when all the fangirls were hating on the two girls added to the cast. Just because they might interfere with the vibe of the show...you know, because they were icky girls. It's been weird, that's for sure.

[jade-dragoness.livejournal.com]

Sing it, sister!

*claps wildly*

A big OMG!YES to everything you said. Canon never really gets in the way of fandom. If anything it makes for even more interesting written fic in the way that authors go over, around and through canon to write their stories.

*beams at you and sticks a gold star to your forehead for being ultra-awesome*