Love or knowing, or Trin attempts SGA meta

[trinityofone]

Here's something I was thinking about on my way back from the grocery store (besides, "Oh, please don't start raining yet" and "Why is there both a covered wagon and a DeLorean parked at the top of Grafton Street?"):

Because I have an inclination toward high drama (no!) I sometimes wonder which I would pick if I were offered the choice between being a great novelist and achieving personal happiness. The fact that I don't know the answer is a little frightening to me: the thought of writing something of importance, something lasting and true, is a great temptation to me, even at the cost of more private fulfilment; in the long run, I tend to think, which carries with it the greater benefit to humanity? Love or legacy; I feel like I should instantly turn toward the former, and I can't, quite.

But enough of my emo angst. Let's talk about Rodney's. Maybe it was the DeLorean, but walking home from Dunnes, I started to wonder which he would choose: love or knowledge. Or rather, because the answer to that seems all too clear, I started to wonder under what circumstances I--or we, the puppeteers--could get him to choose love. To clarify: if he chooses knowledge, he gets the certainty of making great, lasting contributions to humanity's understanding of the universe, and he gets the promise of being recognized for these contributions; if he chooses love, he might still do good work, but there's no guarantee of anything more. If he chooses knowledge, there are no provisions for his heart at all. It's an irrelevance.

What would make him choose love?

(I've thought about this, and the only way I can see him choosing love would be if he were already in love--if he was clearly giving something up. But I'd love to hear alternate suggestions.)

Then there's the really scary part: trying to apply this question to John. I...I can't even frame it properly. Because love, I think, is very far from John's list of personal goals, but aside from "defeating the Wraith" and "not letting people die"--immediate stuff, necessitated by his situation--I'm not even sure what his goals are. What does John want? If--based purely on canon--I had to construct Rodney's Ultimate Happy Ending right now, it would be really easy. His brilliance allows them to defeat the Wraith, everyone lauds him as a genius, he makes this important scientific discovery, and this one, comes up with a Unified Field Theory, wins the Nobel Prize, and has Samantha Carter tell him that she thinks he's the most brilliant man in two galaxies and she would like to sex him now, please. (Actually, as endings go, I think this one is sort of awesome.) But what about John? What would his Ultimate Happy Ending be? Yeah, they defeat the Wraith, and...his favorite football team wins the Super Bowl? Maybe?

Seriously: John, honey, what do you want? How can we make it better? Aside from a world where you never lost anyone, where everyone is alive and whole, I don't even know what to tempt you with.

But I'd love to hear people's thoughts.

ETA: Oooh! But first go read toft_froggy's Five Things You May Not Know About John Sheppard. Wow.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

That's what I wrote about a few weeks ago, how the current Rodney could never love, for the very reasons you briefly outlined, something else being so very important to him (just with more philosphy and babbling). For that reason I find it easier to see John choose love; his interest is with people already.

[trobadora]

Rodney: He's a scientist, but not really a man of abstractions. Choosing love in general isn't something I could see him do; it's too vague and intangible. But love, with this person in particular? A completely different thing.

John: He's an introvert, so his version of happiness isn't as easily tied to external factors. *g* And I think he's not a man who can really imagine a happy ending for himself - he has to be taken completely by surprise. One day he'd wake up and find that wow, he's actually happy, and how the hell did that happen?! And unless he's already had that kind of revelation he'd never choose happiness because it's not really real to him. Rodney wants to be happy (with all that implies for him; substitute John for Sam, and your description above is perfect for me ;-)); John just wants to be, and so long as he can do something useful and not be bothered too much by people trying to tell him what to do he'll be fine.

[coreopsis.livejournal.com]

Call me a romantic, but I think what John wants is a place to belong. And he's already got it with Atlantis. If he could just take care of that pesky Wraith problem, he might possibly be incredibly happy with what he's already got. IMO, he'd definitely be the least bothered by losing contact with Earth forever.

But, I have to admit this is not something I've given hours of in depth thought to, so I'm sure most people who have wouldn't see it that way. I do tend toward the simplest answer to any question, which is why I suck at high drama. *g*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that (the current or any) Rodney could never love; I don't like to believe that about anybody, but especially not Rodney, who's shown very clearly how much he can care for people, even if he hasn't said it--just look at his face aboard the Daedalus at the end of 'The Hive.' Admittedly, love is for him very much a sublimated want, but that doesn't mean it's not there. And luckily, this type of "one or the other" choice is not one he's likely to be asked to make (although I'm still interested in the circumstances--if any--that could make him choose love).

As for John, I see what you mean about his interest being with people already, but I definitely do not think it's a romantic interest. This is not necessarily a bad thing--far from--but there's an odd way in which John is very cut off and detached. He definitely wants everyone to come home safe at the end of the day, but I'm still not convinced that, on any sort of long-term basis, he actually wants to spend time with them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Rodney couldn't love by Fromm's definition of love. And I hardly know anybody who truly loves.
Of course he cares, but he is just as contained as John, and by having an interest that is both time-consuming and challenging, he'd have to give up most of what makes up his life to spare energy for love.



No! Of course John's is not romantic!! Of course detached. But love can't be just for one person, despising all others, which is what much fanfic thrives on, and John's caring about other people brings him closer to being able to love (where romance is only part of it).

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

I think you've put your finger on why the stories I like most about John are the ones that give something that isn't in canon at all, something secret about him. Because the whole point about him in canon is that he's a blank canvas, that he isn't real, rounded in the way that Rodney is, a real person. There has to be some deep, powerful thing going on with him, so repressed that he never lets anyone see it, and that's the key to what would make him happy. That's why I like Human Vacillation!John so much, and transvestite!John and even just secretly gay!John. Or a John that likes to be hurt, or a John that just wants to be a child again and have a real family. Something deeply buried that he doesn't believe he can ever have, and that he's resigned himself so much to getting on without that he may not even know he wants it any more.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Um, I think this whole comment is basically going to be one big "ITA!!!" but still:

I think you hit the nail on the head with love as a concept being too vague and abstract for Rodney, whereas with knowledge, he knows exactly where he stands. I think the offer of "love--with him (or her)" would be much more tempting to him. Do you agree, though, that it would have to be something he had already experienced a little bit? For example, if TPTB or whoever came down and were like, "Rodney! You can revolutionize physics or you can have a blissful life with John here," do you think there'd be any chance he'd choose door number two if he weren't already at least a little in love with John?

I also agree with what you said about happiness taking John by surprise, and I think in some ways, that's why he and Rodney could be so good for each other: because Rodney really wants to be happy (and yes, I am, as you can see, in favor of the substitution you suggest above *g*) and he could sort of drag John with him, while John could ground Rodney in the ways he needs to be grounded--teach him, as you say, how to be. *flails a little* So perfect for each other omg!

[dancinguniverse.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with both coreopsis and trobadora, on both of their points. I think John does want a place to belong, and people who will trust him, respect him, and like him, without making him into something he's not, whether that's SexGod!John, Hero!John, or ScrewUp!John. And I think he has found that place, in Atlantis, and the people there.

I also think he probably isn't looking for a happy ending, he probably is exactly the type to, exactly as trobadora said, "wake up and find that wow, he's actually happy." And I think he can do that on Atlantis, and, of course, with Rodney.

It's part of exactly who John is, that he doesn't let on what he wants, and I don't think he ever will. I don't think he knows himself exactly what he wants, because he doesn't think about that. Especially not now, when there are more important things, like saving the city, to think about.

And, to be completely emo about the whole Rodney issue, I think he actually thinks it's easier to get his Nobel and Grand Unified Theory than it is to have a stable and loving home life. Maybe not easier, precisely. But more clearly attainable and rewarding. He knows how that goes. He trusts himself to be smart enough, to work hard enough, to attain that. Love is much more risky and uncertain, and I don't think he knows how to deal with that, and I don't think he's willing to put enough trust in another human being, to take such a big gamble, with his life's potential. Maybe when he finds someone. If he is, as you said, Trin, already in love, I think he'd be willing to go for it, but as an abstract? No. It's too qualitative. He needs solid, quantitative data, and that means a real person, not the idea of love.

[vylit.livejournal.com]

I think John likes and cares about people, and I do think he likes being around them, but I think he enjoys it because they don't see him. I mean, he likes people to like him, and he's friends with people, or they would consider him a friend, but John holds himself separate from everyone.

I kind of go back to Epiphany and the fact that John honestly thought they'd leave him. It makes me wonder if he doesn't get close to people, because he doesn't believe that people would care for him or respect him how they do know if they knew him. But then again, Chaya did get more of John than most do, so it's really hard to say.

I think John would be happy if he defeated the Wraith, brought Ford back into the fold, and continued to do what he does on Atlantis now. I think John wants to just be and enjoy his puddlejumpers and the people he cares about and his football games and he doesn't want people to pry too much or ask more of him than he can give, which is a lot physically and not a lot emotionally. I think John just wants to not disappoint, so he shows people what they want to see and tries to be what they need, and that means that people like John, people love John, but they don't get to see much of who John actually is. Though I doubt John would see it that way.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I admit to knowing absolutely nothing about Fromm. Would you tell me about him?

by having an interest that is both time-consuming and challenging, he'd have to give up most of what makes up his life to spare energy for love.

I'm no expert, and I'm definitely a romantic, but I don't think that's true. Love should be more than an energy-sucker, and, outside of a "this or that" question (which admittedly this discussion was based on, but we've strayed to more general territory than that) I don't see why he'd have to give up his love of his work for romantic love.

But love can't be just for one person, despising all others, which is what much fanfic thrives on, and John's caring about other people brings him closer to being able to love (where romance is only part of it).

I agree there's more to love than just "John *hearts* Rodney and wants to do him," but I'm wondering specifically about romantic, sexual love, which requires a different kind of commitment than, say, John's love for Atlantis and its people. With the latter, he can give himself to save them and know he's made the right choice; with the former, he'd at least have to think about what the ramifications would be for the one he left behind.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I agree with everything you said, or at least, I don't disagree. But I still think there's something sad about that: like, John the lonely prince of Atlantis or something. ;-) It might be a happy ending for him, but it still seems...so isolated, maybe? Poor John.

Of course, I may be trying to apply my own muddled definition of happiness to him, and that carries its own problems. *shrug*

[trobadora]

I'll have to echo you on the "ITA!!!". *g*

While I have a hard time imagining a Rodney who isn't at least a little in love with John, you're right: it's not just that love is too vague for him; it's that love he's not actually experiencing right now is too vague.

And OMG, you're so right about them being perfect for each other in this! We've found an entire new reason for why they are. *flails with you*

[trobadora]

I have to agree with you on that - while John is certainly better with people than Rodney, he doesn't need them as much. He could be perfectly content and even happy on his own, whereas Rodney, for all that he doesn't really connect with people, would probably shrivel up and die without an audience. *g*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Um. *flails* Yes. I think that's what I was skating around, that there has to be this thing that John isn't telling, that he won't tell. And I want to give it to him, but I don't know what it is.

I think this again goes back to Joe Flanigan, because whatever he's doing, we're lucky that he is doing it, because otherwise John would be boring, full of holes. Instead, he's turned this hole into this incredible, aching mystery, and... *flails some more*

Perhaps I should have just stuck with: *points to you* What she said.

[trobadora]

He knows how that goes. He trusts himself to be smart enough, to work hard enough, to attain that. Love is much more risky and uncertain, and I don't think he knows how to deal with that, and I don't think he's willing to put enough trust in another human being, to take such a big gamble, with his life's potential.

Oh God, yes, that's exactly it. He wants it, but he doesn't know how to achieve it. He'll always go with the familiar over the scary new path with the uncertain end - which is one more reason why Sheppard is so good for him, giving him that push he needs to go for the new, to become more than he thought he could be. *g*

[coreopsis.livejournal.com]

Well, when I say Atlantis, I don't mean the physical city itself but the people. Yeah, if he had Atlantis but didn't have Rodney and Elizabeth and Teyla and Carson and Ronon and Radek (etc, etc)...it would be too sad to contemplate (and I think there have been stories like that but I don't read them since I'm a big happy ending h0r). Atlantis is a family for him and the loss of that was the most interesting thing about Ephiphany (okay, besides Rodney In Charge, which was just hot ;-). He was so depressed by being abandoned that he didn't leave his hut for days. That's a strong connection with his people.

I admit I probably overstated it when i said "incredibly happy". He'd probably be content. *g*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I kind of go back to Epiphany and the fact that John honestly thought they'd leave him.

John has startling little faith in people. It's like: he's willing to give and give--at least, as you say, the physical stuff--but he's not really willing to accept anything, maybe because he doesn't trust enough that it won't backfire on him. It's like he expects to be betrayed.

Maybe that's why he likes his little jovial but isolated life, the one you describe so well: because if doesn't let anybody too close, then they can't stab him in the back.

All my comments seem to be ending this way: poor John!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

*nods* Sorry, I know it's difficult even if we both had the same background. Here (http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/479755.html) I wrote about my reflections on the book after thinking that in reality, Sheppard/McKay would never work.
(Erm, note that I'm definitely also a romantic, and suffering from it, but not in the usual sense of "romantic").

Because if it's not just the typical love-now-divorce-later relationship, it requires active work, a commitment that is less hindered by having an exciting job than by, as I thought your pondering was about, the importance given to love.

I didn't mean it was energy sucking at all, on the contrary, it gives energy, but what we are shown in the show are not people able to give that much conscious attention to loving.

I would not say John "loves" Atlantis or his people, and I would say that thinking about the ramifications for saving either them or his romantic love should or would be the same (nope, I don't adhere to the fanon that R has a right to be angry at him).

[siria]

... there's a DeLorean on Grafton Street?

[trobadora]

and he doesn't want people to pry too much or ask more of him than he can give, which is a lot physically and not a lot emotionally. I think John just wants to not disappoint, so he shows people what they want to see and tries to be what they need, and that means that people like John, people love John, but they don't get to see much of who John actually is.

Yes. Just... yes. *hearts John* And that's why I love McShep so much - because Rodney does see him, and it's not uncomfortable for Shep, and that has to be the greatest miracle of all. *sniffles*

[coreopsis.livejournal.com]

Rodney, for all that he doesn't really connect with people, would probably shrivel up and die without an audience. *g*
hee. Yes, he needs people to appreciate his genius even if he has to bludgeon them with it.

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

I think the big barrier to John finding a happy, loving relationship is that deep down (and you explore this marvelously in the Four Quarters stories), he doesn't think that anyone will ever love him. Sure, he knows that people want him, find him attractive, but deep down there's an unwanted little kid in there who's never been convinced he's worth the effort. The defining John moment in that regard for me is the look on his face when Elizabeth hugs him in Siege III - it's the look of a boy/man who's shocked that someone else gives a damn. I agree with the love thing sneaking up on him and smacking him on the head, but it would take a conscious effort of will for him to be convinced that someone else loved him back.

As for Rodney, he's in that process of stepping outside himself - we've seen it happen in the way he risked his life for Cadman, for example, when inaction on his part would have been the safest course for him. IMO, you can't truly love until you are able to empathize, and he's definitely getting there, moving beyond mere enlightened self-interest. Whether he'd give up knowledge for love, though - that's a tough one.

Interesting discussions you have here! :)

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you about Rodney thinking science is 'easier' than love. Science has verifiable laws and outcomes, and it's an area where (as you say) Rodney has tremendous, and justified, self-confidence. With human beings it's not just a matter of gambling on something ultimately uncertain, it's also something he believes himself to be bad at, as evidenced by the 'arrogant, petty, bad with people' thing from GUP.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I did know that you meant the people too, but that's the problem: I think John lumps it all together in his head. Atlantis&Rodney&Elizabeth&Teyla&Ronon&Carson&Radek. Yes, he hurts if he loses any part of that, but it's all just part of a greater portrait of loss. I worry sometimes that if he lost, say, Radek (or even Rodney) he wouldn't miss him because he'd lost Radek, but because he'd lost "one of his people."

I admit I probably overstated it when i said "incredibly happy". He'd probably be content.

*sigh* I do think contentment's probably the best John can imagine for himself. *wants to give him a hug*

But he'd hate that.

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

I grabbed an old Psych textbook of mine, and this is what it says about Erich Fromm and Love:

Fromm so distinguished his concept of love from popular notions of love that his reference to this concept was virtually paradoxical.

Fromm considered love to be an interpersonal creative capacity rather than an emotion, and he distinguished this creative capacity from what he considered to be various forms of narcissistic neuroses and sado-masochistic tendencies that are commonly held out as proof of "true love." Indeed, Fromm viewed the experience of "falling in love" as evidence of one's failure to understand the true nature of love, which he believed always had the common elements of care, responsibility, respect, and knowledge.

I have this underlined and off to the side I've written "I don't think he got this right," and I have to admit, even 30 years later, I still don't think he got it right. People aren't that simplistic and emotions aren't neuroses (necessarily). If I go by Fromm's definition, then I have never met anybody who "truly loves." Yet, I know that isn't true, because I have.

Rodney is far more an emotional being than John appears to be, and although I couldn't see him giving up science, I can see him choosing love/personal happiness. Why? Because he's got the soul of a real explorer (he wouldn't have joined the expedition in the first place if he was a whiteboard theory man only). And because I think Rodney has so much belief (justified) in his own mind that I think he'd be "I'll take personal happiness, I can win my own Nobel, thanks."

John IS difficult to pin down - of all the "lead" or "hero" characters I've seen in TV genre shows, Sheppard is the most mysterious, because really? John is pretty much a cipher, even after two seasons. We know he is intelligent, we know he's a pilot, we know he served in Afghanistan. We don't know where he comes from, or even how he ended up in the Air Force. He seems fiercely, even unreasonably, loyal to those he cares about (Rodney, Teyla, Elizabeth) and we know he's perfectly capable of killing those who are perceived as the "enemy" (Genii, Wraith), and he apparently likes kids (or, at least in Hide and Seek, he was presented as telling the Athosian kids bedtime stories and it sounded like it was an ongoing thing, though that's never been seen again). He does strike me as somebody who, despite being "hot" looking, has always been an outsider. But what he wants the most? I don't know - to belong, maybe?