Love or knowing, or Trin attempts SGA meta

[trinityofone]

Here's something I was thinking about on my way back from the grocery store (besides, "Oh, please don't start raining yet" and "Why is there both a covered wagon and a DeLorean parked at the top of Grafton Street?"):

Because I have an inclination toward high drama (no!) I sometimes wonder which I would pick if I were offered the choice between being a great novelist and achieving personal happiness. The fact that I don't know the answer is a little frightening to me: the thought of writing something of importance, something lasting and true, is a great temptation to me, even at the cost of more private fulfilment; in the long run, I tend to think, which carries with it the greater benefit to humanity? Love or legacy; I feel like I should instantly turn toward the former, and I can't, quite.

But enough of my emo angst. Let's talk about Rodney's. Maybe it was the DeLorean, but walking home from Dunnes, I started to wonder which he would choose: love or knowledge. Or rather, because the answer to that seems all too clear, I started to wonder under what circumstances I--or we, the puppeteers--could get him to choose love. To clarify: if he chooses knowledge, he gets the certainty of making great, lasting contributions to humanity's understanding of the universe, and he gets the promise of being recognized for these contributions; if he chooses love, he might still do good work, but there's no guarantee of anything more. If he chooses knowledge, there are no provisions for his heart at all. It's an irrelevance.

What would make him choose love?

(I've thought about this, and the only way I can see him choosing love would be if he were already in love--if he was clearly giving something up. But I'd love to hear alternate suggestions.)

Then there's the really scary part: trying to apply this question to John. I...I can't even frame it properly. Because love, I think, is very far from John's list of personal goals, but aside from "defeating the Wraith" and "not letting people die"--immediate stuff, necessitated by his situation--I'm not even sure what his goals are. What does John want? If--based purely on canon--I had to construct Rodney's Ultimate Happy Ending right now, it would be really easy. His brilliance allows them to defeat the Wraith, everyone lauds him as a genius, he makes this important scientific discovery, and this one, comes up with a Unified Field Theory, wins the Nobel Prize, and has Samantha Carter tell him that she thinks he's the most brilliant man in two galaxies and she would like to sex him now, please. (Actually, as endings go, I think this one is sort of awesome.) But what about John? What would his Ultimate Happy Ending be? Yeah, they defeat the Wraith, and...his favorite football team wins the Super Bowl? Maybe?

Seriously: John, honey, what do you want? How can we make it better? Aside from a world where you never lost anyone, where everyone is alive and whole, I don't even know what to tempt you with.

But I'd love to hear people's thoughts.

ETA: Oooh! But first go read toft_froggy's Five Things You May Not Know About John Sheppard. Wow.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

That's what I wrote about a few weeks ago, how the current Rodney could never love, for the very reasons you briefly outlined, something else being so very important to him (just with more philosphy and babbling). For that reason I find it easier to see John choose love; his interest is with people already.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that (the current or any) Rodney could never love; I don't like to believe that about anybody, but especially not Rodney, who's shown very clearly how much he can care for people, even if he hasn't said it--just look at his face aboard the Daedalus at the end of 'The Hive.' Admittedly, love is for him very much a sublimated want, but that doesn't mean it's not there. And luckily, this type of "one or the other" choice is not one he's likely to be asked to make (although I'm still interested in the circumstances--if any--that could make him choose love).

As for John, I see what you mean about his interest being with people already, but I definitely do not think it's a romantic interest. This is not necessarily a bad thing--far from--but there's an odd way in which John is very cut off and detached. He definitely wants everyone to come home safe at the end of the day, but I'm still not convinced that, on any sort of long-term basis, he actually wants to spend time with them.

[trobadora]

Rodney: He's a scientist, but not really a man of abstractions. Choosing love in general isn't something I could see him do; it's too vague and intangible. But love, with this person in particular? A completely different thing.

John: He's an introvert, so his version of happiness isn't as easily tied to external factors. *g* And I think he's not a man who can really imagine a happy ending for himself - he has to be taken completely by surprise. One day he'd wake up and find that wow, he's actually happy, and how the hell did that happen?! And unless he's already had that kind of revelation he'd never choose happiness because it's not really real to him. Rodney wants to be happy (with all that implies for him; substitute John for Sam, and your description above is perfect for me ;-)); John just wants to be, and so long as he can do something useful and not be bothered too much by people trying to tell him what to do he'll be fine.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Um, I think this whole comment is basically going to be one big "ITA!!!" but still:

I think you hit the nail on the head with love as a concept being too vague and abstract for Rodney, whereas with knowledge, he knows exactly where he stands. I think the offer of "love--with him (or her)" would be much more tempting to him. Do you agree, though, that it would have to be something he had already experienced a little bit? For example, if TPTB or whoever came down and were like, "Rodney! You can revolutionize physics or you can have a blissful life with John here," do you think there'd be any chance he'd choose door number two if he weren't already at least a little in love with John?

I also agree with what you said about happiness taking John by surprise, and I think in some ways, that's why he and Rodney could be so good for each other: because Rodney really wants to be happy (and yes, I am, as you can see, in favor of the substitution you suggest above *g*) and he could sort of drag John with him, while John could ground Rodney in the ways he needs to be grounded--teach him, as you say, how to be. *flails a little* So perfect for each other omg!

[coreopsis.livejournal.com]

Call me a romantic, but I think what John wants is a place to belong. And he's already got it with Atlantis. If he could just take care of that pesky Wraith problem, he might possibly be incredibly happy with what he's already got. IMO, he'd definitely be the least bothered by losing contact with Earth forever.

But, I have to admit this is not something I've given hours of in depth thought to, so I'm sure most people who have wouldn't see it that way. I do tend toward the simplest answer to any question, which is why I suck at high drama. *g*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I agree with everything you said, or at least, I don't disagree. But I still think there's something sad about that: like, John the lonely prince of Atlantis or something. ;-) It might be a happy ending for him, but it still seems...so isolated, maybe? Poor John.

Of course, I may be trying to apply my own muddled definition of happiness to him, and that carries its own problems. *shrug*

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

I think you've put your finger on why the stories I like most about John are the ones that give something that isn't in canon at all, something secret about him. Because the whole point about him in canon is that he's a blank canvas, that he isn't real, rounded in the way that Rodney is, a real person. There has to be some deep, powerful thing going on with him, so repressed that he never lets anyone see it, and that's the key to what would make him happy. That's why I like Human Vacillation!John so much, and transvestite!John and even just secretly gay!John. Or a John that likes to be hurt, or a John that just wants to be a child again and have a real family. Something deeply buried that he doesn't believe he can ever have, and that he's resigned himself so much to getting on without that he may not even know he wants it any more.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Um. *flails* Yes. I think that's what I was skating around, that there has to be this thing that John isn't telling, that he won't tell. And I want to give it to him, but I don't know what it is.

I think this again goes back to Joe Flanigan, because whatever he's doing, we're lucky that he is doing it, because otherwise John would be boring, full of holes. Instead, he's turned this hole into this incredible, aching mystery, and... *flails some more*

Perhaps I should have just stuck with: *points to you* What she said.

[dancinguniverse.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with both coreopsis and trobadora, on both of their points. I think John does want a place to belong, and people who will trust him, respect him, and like him, without making him into something he's not, whether that's SexGod!John, Hero!John, or ScrewUp!John. And I think he has found that place, in Atlantis, and the people there.

I also think he probably isn't looking for a happy ending, he probably is exactly the type to, exactly as trobadora said, "wake up and find that wow, he's actually happy." And I think he can do that on Atlantis, and, of course, with Rodney.

It's part of exactly who John is, that he doesn't let on what he wants, and I don't think he ever will. I don't think he knows himself exactly what he wants, because he doesn't think about that. Especially not now, when there are more important things, like saving the city, to think about.

And, to be completely emo about the whole Rodney issue, I think he actually thinks it's easier to get his Nobel and Grand Unified Theory than it is to have a stable and loving home life. Maybe not easier, precisely. But more clearly attainable and rewarding. He knows how that goes. He trusts himself to be smart enough, to work hard enough, to attain that. Love is much more risky and uncertain, and I don't think he knows how to deal with that, and I don't think he's willing to put enough trust in another human being, to take such a big gamble, with his life's potential. Maybe when he finds someone. If he is, as you said, Trin, already in love, I think he'd be willing to go for it, but as an abstract? No. It's too qualitative. He needs solid, quantitative data, and that means a real person, not the idea of love.

[trobadora]

He knows how that goes. He trusts himself to be smart enough, to work hard enough, to attain that. Love is much more risky and uncertain, and I don't think he knows how to deal with that, and I don't think he's willing to put enough trust in another human being, to take such a big gamble, with his life's potential.

Oh God, yes, that's exactly it. He wants it, but he doesn't know how to achieve it. He'll always go with the familiar over the scary new path with the uncertain end - which is one more reason why Sheppard is so good for him, giving him that push he needs to go for the new, to become more than he thought he could be. *g*

[siria]

... there's a DeLorean on Grafton Street?

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Swear to God. Parked right next to a covered wagon. Maybe the DeLorean brought it back...to the future!

Have you pimped your fic yet? Am I gonna have to do it?

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

I think the big barrier to John finding a happy, loving relationship is that deep down (and you explore this marvelously in the Four Quarters stories), he doesn't think that anyone will ever love him. Sure, he knows that people want him, find him attractive, but deep down there's an unwanted little kid in there who's never been convinced he's worth the effort. The defining John moment in that regard for me is the look on his face when Elizabeth hugs him in Siege III - it's the look of a boy/man who's shocked that someone else gives a damn. I agree with the love thing sneaking up on him and smacking him on the head, but it would take a conscious effort of will for him to be convinced that someone else loved him back.

As for Rodney, he's in that process of stepping outside himself - we've seen it happen in the way he risked his life for Cadman, for example, when inaction on his part would have been the safest course for him. IMO, you can't truly love until you are able to empathize, and he's definitely getting there, moving beyond mere enlightened self-interest. Whether he'd give up knowledge for love, though - that's a tough one.

Interesting discussions you have here! :)

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

I love that moment in Siege III - Elizabeth hugs him and he literally doesn't know what to do - he doesn't even know where to put his hands. There's something heartwrenching about the awkward way he finally sort of pats her back, carefully, as though sudden movement might cause them both to explode. It's definitely the facial expression of someone who is astonished that anybody would do this, would care one way or another, and he's clearly shaken by her greeting even during the ensuing conversation (and before he gets his mask fully back in place, he's hit with Col. Everett's admission that he wished John had been there to put him out of his Wraith induced misery).

[soupytwist.livejournal.com]

Oooooh, interesting.

I kind of think that Rodney is actually in a position right now where he's much more likely to choose love than he ever was before - especially before he got sent off to Antarctica, I don't think he'd have spent more than a fraction of an instant before going "knowledge, duh", but now he's had two years in very extreme circumstances with people who he actually likes and trusts. I think the idea of 'love' is getting less abstract to him, because with his team he's actually got something to lose in that respect. I see Rodney's abrasiveness as partly being a defense mechanism - him telling himself that he doesn't need all this petty crap that other people seem to - but that now he's got at least John with whom he's actually connected, he's sort of letting himself think that maybe there is something to it. Not that he's turned all soppy and spends his time wishing he had True Loove or whatever, cause, no, but just getting to a point where having his people alive is actively placed as being more important than finding something out has got to have had quite the impact on him. I suspect you're probably right on the deciding factor being whether he was already in love, though - or maybe, maybe if it was somebody he knew enough to care when he got told they were in love with him. If that makes any sense. Other than a very specific option on love, like you said, the only other thing I can think of is if he was somehow assured that choosing knowledge meant being miserable, would somehow destroy all the human happiness he'd got. If it was "you can learn this and we make everybody hate you, or you can not learn this and you'll have love", I think there's at least a chance he'd pick love these days.

And John, man. John's such a sad character for exactly that reason - I don't think he really wants anything. I see him as kind of having given up on that ages ago, just figured it wasn't for him and that was that, and it makes my heart hurt. I think the closest we got to seeing what he wants for himself was in Home - and that was all so fake, and like even he knew it, too. No way would that cheesy gay apartment actually be John's, and even the friends he has there to meet him are all dead. Ow. But I think that's enough of a hint that maybe, what he wants is a stable home somewhere with people who are still there and still caring about him the next day. It doesn't seem much of a leap for me either to assume that that's exactly what he never had as a kid.

And it also seems like the military thing ties in to that - one of the things the military mostly doesn't give you is a stable home life with consistent companions who you like and who like you, and that's got to have sort of helped John keep the idea that for him, that stuff was never going to happen. And now he's got Atlantis, where maybe it is, even if not in the hot sex kind of way. And I suspect that freaks John out even more than the Wraith do, because bad guys he knows how to shoot, but how to be happy? Not so much. So, I figure he just tries not to think about it and never says anything so he doesn't jinx it. And, obviously, does his best to do aforementioned shooting the crap out of the bad guys. Cause I don't think John has a grand Happy Ending in his head - Rodney totally does, Rodney's figured out every possible outcome ever and has his favourite one and then has loud arguments about it with the bit of his brain that says the worst one is going to happen, but John... I'm not sure whether it's cause he really does think he's going to die and therefore there's no point in having a happy ending planned, or because he's way more convinced than even Rodney is that the best is never going to happen and the worst quite possibly is, but he doesn't seem to let himself think much further than the present when it comes to himself. So maybe what he'd really want is assurance that he's going to make it long enough to actually have long-term possibilities. Hum.

Wow. Um, I didn't actually think I had all that much to say about this, so sorry for the spam. :)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I'm really having to restrain myself from just going "WORD" at everyone, but, um.

I agree that love--or even just friendship, other people--has recently become much more of a priority for Rodney. I mean, take '48 Hours': Rodney now, he'd be right there with Sam trying to get Teal'c (or whomever) out of the gate, even if it was impractical, even if it was a longshot. He's grown a lot. He's a much less careless person than he used to be.

All this stuff about Rodney and the specifics of the 'love or knowledge' deal has got me really amused and thinking about the devil actually trying to strike a deal with Rodney. Rodney would make him clarify it and alter it and generally futz around with it until the devil got so frustrated, he'd be like, "You know what? Here, have some happiness, and some knowledge--you can keep your soul, I never want to have to talk to you again." And then the devil goes home and cries.

I think 'Home' is an excellent example of how seriously fucked up John is. All that control over the universe, and he chooses that? Also, rewatching it, it's pretty clear that he knows from the beginning that it's all fake. And yet he goes along with it. John...you kinda scare me.

And also, yeah: Rodney's secretly an optimist and John's secretly a pessimist. And because of this they are prefect for each other. Or something. ;-)

[vee-fic.livejournal.com]

What does John want? We've witnessed his hedonism, but not much else. He wants nice sensations, and maybe nothing more complicated than that. I can describe for you his idea of a good day (involving pizza, beer, zero-G maneuvers, sex, and fishing, hopefully not in that order), but I think he wouldn't know "happiness" if it propositioned him. You've got to be meta to be able to assess your happiness status; and one thing John seems really to prefer not to do is get meta about himself.

Whether the total lack of meta is a sign of a Secret Pain or not, we don't know. Secret Pain is sort of the standard answer, in fanfic, because, Pain! That is secret! Possibly there will be comfort somewhere in there! But, contrariwise, it's perfectly plausible for him just to be one of those people who really doesn't think too hard about himself, ever, and floats in a quasi-permanent present tense. (That's either a skill or a sign of brain damage; I'm not sure.) Sort of makes you wonder: if he hadn't ended up in the armed forces, where career paths are kind of obvious and well-paved, where would he have ended up?

(I will pay cash munny to the fanfic writer who rewrites the whole series as a drama about the fact Sheppard is actually a robot, and the only person who doesn't know it is him.)

(Double points to the person who can make it an existential comedy rather than a tragedy.)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I will pay cash munny to the fanfic writer who rewrites the whole series as a drama about the fact Sheppard is actually a robot, and the only person who doesn't know it is him.

Um. I'll respond to the rest of your comment in a minute, but I have to say: holy shit. Because I recently wrote (but have not yet fully edited or posted) that exact story.

*gulps*

I don't get double points, though. *sad*

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I definitely see John as someone who has shut down. There are many possibilities for when, whether you see him as an army brat or even put it as late as failing to save his friends in Afghanistan. I tend to go with John shutting down because of death over being an army brat more because of personal experience with shut down army brats and shut down over death people. But hey, fic comes in many varieties and that's what makes it fun.

I think the charm of John has a lot to do with Joe's acting ability or lack there of, depending on your view. But it's also a defense mechanism and a counter to Rodney's yelling at everyone for being stupid and Teyla's eyebrow raising.

While I don't think John has a death wish, that I've read lots of fic about, I do think there's something about him and living on borrowed time. As if he was supposed to die in Afghanistan and then doesn't have any goals afterwards because he's world view's been shot to hell and somehow he's ended up with a career in the military. (How he ended up with a military career is what I want the show to tell me over anything else in John's personal life.) Then he's ordered to Antarctica, which is probably the closest thing to discharging a soldier without discharging him they can do. He's also forced on Atlantis after they discover how strong his gene is. (If John hadn't said yes, they would've ordered him to go.)

I think that John's goals are to defeat the Wraith and keep his people safe because those are the only things he feels he knows how to do well. He's not career ambitious, which is why Weir likes having him, and he's not looking for wife/home/2.5 kids/dog/cat, which makes him perfect for the Atlantis mission. He's living on borrowed time and doesn't expect to come back alive given their situation (see: strapping himself to nuclear warhead). However, he's not actively seeking death; he just won't be surprised when it happens.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I STRONGLY agree about John not having a death wish (and am thus using my Buffy icon for, er, irony). I agree that's he just very practical about it--death isn't something that he wants, but it won't be a surprise. I think it was maybe rokeon who wrote a great Sandman crossover like that: Death and John are already well acquainted.

And I really like the idea that he is (or that he thinks he is) living on borrowed time. Hmm. And I'd very much like to hear how he ended up in the military, too. There are so many ways in which it doesn't suit.

[quettaser.livejournal.com]

What does John want?

I think that this is the crux of what makes John, in the end, a heart-breaking character. For all that he's dorky and charming, deep down there's this void he just has no idea how to fill.

For me, John's always come across as a shell and to himself as a shield. I think he really sees himself in a protector role and that his life's main value is that one day, he might be able to sacrifice it to save someone worthier. The only problem with that - besides the obvious - is that now he's in a leadership role where he can't as easily throw himself into the fray. That leads to a conflict he's never had to face before, that he's wanted and needed beyond the capacity of a soldier (Like in "Hot Zone," he doesn't understand why Elizabeth needs him alive, and in "Siege III" he doesn't understand why she's so happy to have him back).

That always gets me wondering about how this could happen, how someone could end up thinking (though not always consciously) that their only value is in death? Part of it must be the military lifestyle. Beyond funding and securing any knowledge and profit that could come out of the Pegasus galaxy (beaurocratic reasons), the only purpose of the military presence in Atlantis is to protect the people doing real scientific work (what I like to think as "old school military reasons," the kind of thing used in a propaganda campaign; the whole protect the homeland deal). Part of being a good soldier is buying into that, even just a little bit. But I have to wonder if maybe, in Afghanistan, John watched his friends die and thought of their families and the people who'd be affected by their loss and said, "why not me? I have so little compared to them, there'd be so much less hurt in the world if it had been me."

Which, ow.

Maybe, deep down, what John really wants is someone to charge right through all his deflections and dive deep into that big void and find something that makes him worthy. It doesn't even have to be taken in a romantic sense, because a good friend can do that (and I see the whole of Atlantis slowly showing John all the bits of him he can't see himself), but I think this is why Rodney and John work so well together (and also what makes them a good story). Rodney is absolutely honest about who is of value to him and who isn't. He will not waste time on something that has no value, and he's already made the decision a hundred times over that John is worth his time. Hell, not only his time and his brain, but his trust. Rodney coming to John so brokenly in "Aurora," just stands out to me, because Rodney's talking about trust and none of the surface qualities John (I think) would see as his positives. Clearly, Rodney cares for John as a person, not as a soldier or some sort of shield.

I have the most vivid image of them together, years down the line, and John asks "why me?" in that quiet way he has, probably not expecting an answer because he doesn't think Rodney's listening. But Rodney is, and at first he rattles off a list of things (smart enough, handsome, financially responsible), but all John can think is none of that matters, until Rodney stops and just goes, "Because you're you. Moron."

So, maybe what John wants is some to see all of him, and still like him in spite of it (even though they will probably like him because of it). And wow, that was longer than I thought. Good discussion. :)

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

All this talk about John made me go and post a little character-musing 5-things snippet I wrote about John a while ago. It's up on my LJ. (http://toft-froggy.livejournal.com/161992.html#cutid1) It's weird, because it's kind of about exactly the questions you've brought up, about what John envisages in the way of his 'happy ending'. So, um, thanks, because I'd forgotten I'd written that.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I am so, so glad to have reminded you. Seriously.

[aurora]

I'm having a great time reading all this and going 'word!' and 'ow' and 'awww, *fangirl squee*'. :D

I really suck at meta though, because I never quite know how to formulate my answer and I tend to overthink the issue without coming up with something coherent. So far, all I've got is 'Oh, John'. Fic-wise, I think this comes quite close as to how I see John and the Rodney/Jonn dynamic.

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes, I adore that story:)

[natroga.livejournal.com]

It's probably been said 5000 times already, but I think that if you asked John what he wants, he'd react exactly like you said. I honestly believe he wouldn't know, but spout some bullshit about defeating the wraith and whatever. He really, really wouldn't know. I don't know, John strikes me as an extreme live-in-the-now person. But not in the Carpe Diem sense, but in the "if I think about anything else, I'm going to break" kind of way. I don't think he has long term goals. I mean, it's practically canon, seeing as his whole ambition in life seemed to be flying.

Or maybe that's the answer. He really just wants to fly. But now he has responsibilities, and I do think that keeping his people safe is important to him, but it's definitely not the be-all-end-all of his existence.

Er, hi. Sorry about dropping in. *sheepish*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Or maybe that's the answer. He really just wants to fly.

John wingfic would be, like, the most angst-free wingfic ever. Hmm. *kind of wants to write it*

Er, hi. Sorry about dropping in. *sheepish*

Hey, you never have to apologize for that. Room for everyone! Champagne? Canapé? =)

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

I guess I just don't see John or John's future as quite as dire as most. I think what John subconsciously wants most is, as many have said, a place to belong. And I think he has that already.

I think John has a fairly strong ability to adapt and therefore make himself content. And I don't think contentment is all that horrible or sad of a goal. I think a lot of people would be happy to have that much. Should they defeat the Wraith and get Atlantis back on it's original mission, John would have a lot, as far as I see it. He'd have his team whom I do believe he does love if only in a platonic form. He'd have the rest of the Atlantis crew who seems pretty loyal to him, he'd have cool space ships to fly and he'd be living in an alien city. As far as ways to spend your life, this does not strike me as all that pitiable. John doesn't seem to require great passion, but I think I'd find it a little self-righteous to assume that because of that he's unhappy.

I guess I also don't actually find John all that much more contained or unknowable than the rest of the cast. We don't know a heck of a lot about Ronon or Teyla or even Elizabeth. And yes in part that's because they aren't the lead characters, but I also don't really see them as being much more generous with their internal selves than John is. But I also have to admit that the whole "charming mask" theory of John does drive me a bit to the wall. Mostly because I don't see why the John that kills the Genii and the John that gets a kick out of Rodney and pesters Elizabeth about taking the jumpers underwater has to be an either/or situation. I think people are complex enough to comfortably contain both of those.

I'd agree that his personality is somewhat deflective, but I don't see him as all that purposefully dissociative. His team, especially this season, is full of people he had to actively recruit. People, moreover, who push him and won't just follow his orders because he has a higher rank.

What you mention for Rodney--in terms of discovering the next big theory and finally getting Sam to admit his brilliance, those are believably in character, but I don't ultimately see them as being much different than John wanting to take out the Wraith and protect his people. They seem more personal goals than sources of long term personal happiness.

love or knowledge

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

When you talk about Rodney choosing "love or knowledge", I immediately think of Galileo. What would it take for Rodney to foreswear his own scientific results? I cannot imagine him doing it to get love, under any circumstances. He might do it for the sake of people he loves, or even for the sake of people he doesn't know (e.g. the population of Earth), but he wouldn't do it for the sake of a relationship.

What might "love vs. knowledge" mean for Rodney?

1. Someone says, "If you keep saying X is true, I won't love you." Rodney will *always* keep saying X is true.

2. Someone says, "If you keep trying to find out if X (in Rodney's field) is true, I won't love you." Again, he would say he had to keep at it, sorry about that love thing.

3. Someone says, "If you keep trying to find out if X (not in Rodney's field) is true, I won't love you." Very sensitive to the value of X, and why Rodney is trying to find out if it's true. Most likely Rodney will go for the knowledge.

4. If offered a chance between a life devoted to seeking scientific knowledge and one devoted to love, Rodney is likely to snort derisively. He's *good* at science and not so good at love, so how could choosing love actually be a choice for anything except failure?

5. Someone says, "disavow this scientific truth, or I will hurt you or the people you love" -- he mostly *would* pick the people, but that's because of the "e pur si muove" thing: that is, Rodney will still *know* it was true, and would have faith that scientific truth would come out on top in the long run, but people aren't so tough.

Re: love or knowledge

[wychwood]

I think that's mostly a slightly different question, though - it's not purely "love vs science", it's "truth versus threats-and-lies". I mean, love that's conditional on him giving up a scientific theory? What's that worth anyway? If X is true, there's nothing Rodney can do about it.

Though I agree with you on your 5.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

For my AU reel_sga fic, I've been contemplating just what exactly John would do if he wasn't in the military. And I still don't really know. Maybe I just lack the imagination to fully separate a character from his job, but I think it's a little more than that. (Just to forewarn you, I don't know nearly enough about the military as I should, so there might be mistakes.)

It'd be easy to say that John joined the USAF because he wanted to fly, so much that it didn't matter that he doesn't really fit in with the military way of life. And while I do believe John loves flying, and that maybe a part of him thinks that if as long as he can fly everything else will be fixed somehow.

For some reason, I see the Air Force as something that kind of happened to John more than anything. Even with the flying motivation I don't think he's a future-oriented person at all. To him, life isn't about going after what you want, it just happens and you deal with it. I'm pretty sure he thought he had no real idea what he wanted to do with his life, and the opportunity to join the Air Force came by, and it had some good things and bad things about it, but it wasn't any better or worse than anything else he could do. Plus planes and weapons are cool.

But my impression is that John, for all his loner attitude and smirking middle finger toward authority, really does, as others have said, need to belong, and more than that needs something outside of himself to give him a purpose and a direction, because he sure as hell doesn't get that from inside. I think John joined up because- besides the flying thing- maybe when he was younger and less cynical he got caught up in the honor and commraderie the military presents, though he'd never admit that.

And then the rules and the politics and chain of command bullshit (and, to me, DADT as well) all start to seriously chafe, and John starts to realize that he doesn't really fit here anymore than's he's ever fit anywhere else. This culminates of course in Afghanistan, when John's principles (because if nothing else, I do think he has principles) finally run smack up against the practicalities of life in the military. The John in Antartica is one who is seriously disillusioned (though John would never call it that, he's an secret idealist who's learned to be a pragmatist really well). At the same time, I don't ever see him leaving the service even if he could. Partly due to spiteful stubbornness, and partly due to the fact that he wouldn't really know what to do with himself otherwise. His job is what he does, and even if he's been screwed over and is vaguely miserable, leaving would mean thinking about a whole lot of things that John doesn't ever want to think about.

(Continued in reply 'cause I rambled too much.)

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

While he's in the Air Force it enables him to conceive of everything he does it terms of something besides himself. Like, the military sent him to Antartica, that's why he's there. Stuff just happens. He happened to be flying O'Neill, then this drone happened to go after them, and then he happpened to sit in this chair, oh, well I guess I'm going to the Pegasus galaxy, then, aren't I? (The coin-tossing scene is particularly interesting when viewed in this light, mostly because it's not like John really had a choice in the matter, but the show of tossing a coin to make such a huge decision anyway probably provided a deeply ironic amusement for John.)

That said, I think that this attitude is really just a defense mechanism, because John is deeply and painfully aware of all the mistakes he's made, and the things he's responsible for. But again, I'm pretty sure he sees this in terms of failing other people, and he'd never think of it as failing himself, because that's kind of a given. He still needs other people to do the right thing for and to give him a reason to be, because he's not worth enough to do it on his own.

Being in Atlantis, as much as it has given him a second chance, has also made his life so much harder, because now he's officially responsible for all these people, and worse than that he genuinely likes them and cares about them more than he ever wanted to, and even worse than that is that they seem to honestly care about him back. They need him. And he doesn't understand that at all. So he goes about killing and saving the day because that's what he does, but a part of him is wondering if maybe there's another reason he's doing it this time, because he's hasn't believed in anything in a long, long time: they're worth saving, and if they are, maybe he is too.

[namastenancy.livejournal.com]

WOW! Absolutely fascinating discussion. But - I don't want to be a party pooper but the John that I see in fandom writing is a lot more fascinating, multilayered and interesting than the one I see on the screen. While I think that Joe Flanigan is about as gorgeous as they come, I don't think he's a very good - or multi-layered - actor. For me, the difficulty in knowing what Sheppard wants goes back to JF's average acting skills. That's where David Hewlett really shines; he's no where as over-the-top gorgeous as Flanigan but he's a more interesting actor with a much wider range.

[ceteramisto.livejournal.com]

After reading every comment to this post, being able to count on the fingers of one hand the ones I don't at least mostly agree with, and watching the discussion meander in several directions this seems as good a place as any to write down some of my feelings about Rodney McKay and John Sheppard.

Rodney is my SGA OTC, but I wouldn't love him nearly as much if it weren't for my believe in John seeing the potential in Rodney and helping Rodney grow as a person through John's faith and trust in him.

John is the character I most want to see inside and figure out what makes him tick, but I wouldn't be as interested in figuring him out if it weren't for my believe in Rodney's ability to force his way through John's surface to what John's hiding underneath.

These two things together are why I can read Rodney paired with Teyla, Ronan, Cadman, and Sam since I believe, given time, anyone of those four could see Rodney's growth, but I can't read John paired with anyone but Rodney because I don't think anyone else could push through the surface and see all the parts that make up John Sheppard.

[springwoof.livejournal.com]

fascinating discussion! thanks for bringing it up.

[fenris_wolf0]

I thought this was what 'Four Quarters' was about? ie, McKay choosing love vs. immortality/academic recognition/knowledge/Nobel Prize

[sonofzeal.livejournal.com]

This isn't really topical, but I thought you'd like to know it. Apparently, there is (or was) a restaurant in Gaulway (sp?) called "Home Plate" that is excellent Italian food. Thought you might want to know if you're ever in that area.

Also, while I was at where I found that at, there was a clip of Stargate on t.v. I was able to identify it soley by hearing names I'd read in your journal. I'm not sure what that means.

[tikiaceae.livejournal.com]

Talking more about their Ultimate Happy Endings rather than love - because John and Rodney belong together and will be together no matter what! - I think John is the type of person who just doesn't have ultimate goals in life. He won't/can't plan his life further ahead than he absolutely has to and even then, it'll be vague. It's not to say he's an unhappy person because I think he's more content with his life than Rodney will ever be. I mean, I can easily imagine him flying the jumper back from the mainland, looking at the water below, staring up at the alien sky, Atlantis towers and thinking, Christ, I'm good with where I am right this moment... I'm where I'm supposed to be. Just being content with what he already has but not really having realised. Sure, he's burdened with other people's deaths and responsibility but ultimately John Sheppard is practical and in the end, he's okay with what he's been given.

Whereas Rodney... As you said, he has all these goals, things to do, people to berate, awards to win, blondes to win over but would he be really happy when everything's achieved? He'll be momentarily (a day, a week, a month even) ecstatic but in the end, I think he'll crash down. Hard. Unlike John, Rodney's not the type to be satisfied with things just being 'okay'. I think he has these goals because he thinks achieving those will make him happy and just satisfied with his life. But always, always, he'll find that one more thing to achieve, to discover. Just always 'reaching', y'know?

Now to get both these men happy and content, they need each other! But then that's my answer to everything McKay and Sheppard related. *g*

[neery.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's so typical. Whenever I read the comments only after I posted, I'll find someone who's said it much better than I have. *glares at you*

But seriously, word to everything you said.

[neery.livejournal.com]

Um, okay, I haven't read through all of he comments yet, but so far I seem to be the only one not thinking "Aww, poor fucked up/lonely/isolated John." Ahem. So I will expose my eternal optimism to ridicule now, I guess. *braces self*

Aside from a world where you never lost anyone, where everyone is alive and whole,

Exactly that, actually. And not neccessarily much else. I don't see John as a person with many needs, or huge goals. I think that he's very similar to me in that regard -- happy to live his life, as long as fate isn't conspiring to actively makes him unhappy.

I think all John wants is a life where no one he cares about gets hurt or killed, where he has a job he likes (flying) without superiors who order him to do things he doesn't want to, time to do the things he enjoys (surfing, reading, stuff like that), the occasional thrill in the form of dangerous stuff to do, people around him who like him, some good friends, and someone to love who loves him back.

Simple, really. I'm not quite sure where this opinion comes from, but it's the overall impression I get of him -- partly from his comment that he likes Antarctica, a place that would have given him much of the above, but also just from the general way he behaves and interacts with people.

But yes, I'm aware that I'm likely just extrapolating from myself, because I am like that, placidly content with life unless life is kicking me in really vicious ways, and John sometimes seems so similar to me in that regard. Of course, the fact that he is in a situation where life does kick him all the time makes that even harder to judge.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess I see that as what would have made a young John happy? But now, now that life has kicked him so many times and he's done and seen the things he has, can he ever really go back to that? If they defeated the Wraith and John could just spend his days bugging Rodney and fooling around the the puddlejumpers, do you think he'd be happy?

I don't know, maybe he would. You're confusing me again, John!

[wychwood]

This is a really interesting question :) And I've never considered the love/knowledge thing personally; I'd definitely take knowledge over "being in love", in the abstract, but I wouldn't want a life without any love at all.

Actually, I think this is an important distinction to make for this sort of debate - being in love, romance, Finding Someone, having hot sex, whatever - that's not at all the same thing as having love in your life, good friends and family. I think everyone needs the latter, but the former, not necessarily.

I agree entirely that Rodney would only choose love over knowledge if it were a specific love with someone he already cared for. And even then, the conditions would have to be right - he didn't want imaginary!Sam when he knew it wasn't "real", and I find it hard to see him settling for any kind of manufactured "love" affair.

John is more complicated. I agree with all the people who have said that he seems to live very much in the moment and not to really have much in the way of long-term goals; I think he wants a place to belong, people to trust, and a good purpose. But it's all less quantifiable than Rodney's aims.