Rite of Passage

[trinityofone]

There comes a time in every young fangirl's life when, should she still reside amongst the chalk-dust lecture halls and book-dust libraries of academia, she must pick up the mantle and write an academic paper about slash. And for me, brothers and sisters (mostly sisters), that time has come.

Basically what happened was this: my popular literature class had a guest lecturer, Prof. McCarthy. She was giving a talk on Poppy Z. Brite's Exquisite Corpse (which, embarrassingly, I still have not been able to find), and in doing so, she talked about serial killers in both history and literature, and provided us with some great quotes. (One of my favorites, Paul Anthony Woods on Norman Bates: "He registers in our hearts as one of the most loveable sickos of pop culture.") Then she showed us selected postings from the Yahoo!Group JeffreyDahmerClub. If you click on the link, which I do NOT recommend, you'll see some of what she showed us: people (mostly women) talking about how much they love Jeffrey Dahmer, how they feel he was just misunderstood, how hot he is--all very serious and earnest. I was, needless to say, disturbed by this. Especially because one of the first thoughts that entered my mind was: "Jesus, these people must've been on Yahoo!Groups talking about their love for a serial killer at the exact same time I, fresh-faced and 17, was there posting about my love for Spike."

...At which point I would like to take a time out and say: Fuck you, David Fury.

But ANYWAY...just then Prof. McCarthy said something about how both serial killers and their fans exhibit an "obsessive and insatiable" need for more, more, more. And then she brought up slash.

Slash readers and writers--the term was of course defined for the giggling audience, with the inevitable Kirk/Spock example and an increase in giggling--exhibit, said McCarthy, the same need for more of their chosen type of media: more story, more sexual tension, more sex. Brite, not a slash fan, has bemoaned the fact that while "real" writers will work hard to "create real, complex, multidimensional characters with lives that need no 'improvement' by the peanut gallery, all some readers really want is for [the characters] to fall into a huge rutting jizz-drenched scrum" (Fan Nine from Outer Space). Prof. McCarthy didn't specifically disagree with Brite; mostly she just drew the obvious connections between sex and violence, making, IMO, rather too big a deal about the possible violent connotations of the word "slash." I really wasn't quite sure what she was trying to say, actually; but more than that, I was disturbed that my mind had made the leap from Jeffrey Dahmer fandom to our fandom first, and without being prompted.

After the lecture, there was a question and answer period. I debated whether I should say anything--I didn't want to "out" myself to a room full of strangers, and I wasn't sure how to neutrally phrase a question, or even what I wanted to ask. Finally, I raised my hand and mumbled something about how, while I definitely saw the connection between obsessive-compulsive, insatiable behaviour and slash fandom, didn't Prof. McCarthy think it might have less to do with violence, and more to do with (here I stumbled, wanting to say--I think--love) romance novels? You know, the type little old ladies check out from the library, the type with Fabio on the cover? Prof. McCarthy conceded that this might be so. Class dismissed.

I left unsatisfied. I thought about just going home and writing a bitchy, dismissive post about how we are NOT like that. Yet I was still bothered by the fact that my brain had made the connection first. And what are we, if not obsessive and insatiable? What does that make us--serial readers? Serial writers? Why do we do what we do?

So I went to Dr. Jones' office hours and outed myself as a slasher.

The meeting began less than promisingly, as he greeted me by saying, "Aren't you the student that asked the question about Fabio?" I admitted that I was, and that yes, I am from Berkeley, and that yes (feeling quite the stereotype), I would like to talk more about the gay porn, please.

Dr. Jones said he was "fascinated by this phenomenon known as 'slash.'" I said I was quite an expert, but that the lecture that morning had made me think about why we did it--why I did it. One of our class' essay titles is "Write an essay on why you think formulaic writing is so popular"--could I, I inquired, write an essay about slash?

His response was enthusiastic. Very enthusiastic. Did I mention that I rather adore him? I do, I do.

Anyway, he introduced me to Prof. Silver, whom he called "the university's resident slash expert." Unfortunately, this is not an actual tenured position--too bad, 'cause nice as Prof. Silver was, I could totally have beaten her out for it. She really didn't know much about internet fandom at all, but she gave me a great book--Constance Penley's NASA/TREK, which I highly recommend, despite the fact that it's old and thus deals mostly with 'zines--and even better, a lot of encouragement. In return, I gave her links to some classic fandom stuff--she'd never heard of the Very Secret Diaries! *gasp*--and, when pressed, some of my own stories. (Yikes!) When I come out, I come out hard--bringing the clothes, the hangers, and the dust bunnies with me.

So now--

The short version: I now have just over a weak to write a paper about Why We Slash. I think I can pull together the more academic, sociological sources, but for the rest, I need your help. I want this paper to be different from other writings about slash and fandom: I'm not going to distance myself; rather, I'm going to get permission to write in the first person and include myself in the analysis. I don't want to be yet another judgmental outsider looking in (or down) on "this phenomenon known as slash"; I'm a part of it, I'm not going to deny it, and that gives me a unique perspective.

But I need other people's perspectives--other people's insights--too. So, fellow fandom folks: if you could take the time to answer the following questions, I would be deeply appreciative.

1. What do you get out of a) fanfiction in general and/or genfic; b) romantic, 'shipper fic, regardless of the genders and sexualities of the participants; and c) slash fic, especially m/m slash?

2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?

3. If you're a writer as well as a reader, do you derive a different sort of experience from writing than from reading? How do the two compare? (If you're a vidder or artist, please feel free to talk about that, too.)

4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?

5. Why do you think slash fandom and slash fiction are the phenomena that they are?

If you want to provide info about age, gender, sexual preference, when you entered fandom or how long you've been in it, it would be interesting and useful, but obviously, I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. With that in mind, anyone who'd prefer to take this out of a public forum can also e-mail me at kaufmaa@tcd.ie . You can also comment anonymously, though I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some sort of alias in case I choose to quote you.

With that in mind: unless you tell me otherwise, any quotes I pull will be attributed to your LJ username (minus the LJ distinction, of course.) So if I were quoting myself, I might say: "'I'm in it for the porn, baby!' said one writer, trinityofone. 'Porn, porn, porn--that's what the internet is for!'"* If you'd prefer to be quoted under a different name, just tell me what it is. But don't get too panicky: this paper will most likely be seen by no one other than Dr. Jones, Prof. McCarthy, Prof. Silver, and myself. And we're all very discreet. ;-)

Finally, PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD. Which is to say: the red light is on, I have multiple varieties of condoms (some are flavored!), but right now I'm all by my lonesome, so I need you to pimp, pimp, pimp. Also, if anyone knows of any communities where I might be able to rustle up some participants, that'd be fab.

So in conclusion: let me know if you have any questions, and thanks in advance!

*Actually, I read slash for the articles. 'The' is a good one; so's 'a.' ...And after that display of dorkery, we're all going to pretend this footnote doesn't exist.

Comments

[siria]

Here via metafandom. I'm going to come back and answer your questions when I have time later on, but I just had to say how incredibly amused (read: inhaled my tea and choked on it) I was when you mentioned that Darryl Jones knows about slash. I mean, I knew that the man had written fanfiction, and was possibly vaguely aware of the Harry Potter fandom, but I didn't know he knew about fandom to that extent. The English department is so much cooler than my own; they channel their academic tics and eccentricities in directions that are so much more interesting.

Um. I hope this doesn't come across as too weird or stalkery a comment; it's just so unusual to run across someone who's attended/is attending TCD. And I shall be back to comment later once I have time, and have thought about your questions.

[siria]

20, female, straight. I've been in fandom for a little over three years, starting out in the Jane Austen fandom before migrating to the Harry Potter fandom, with sideward forays into fandoms like the two Stargates and BSG, amongst others.

1. What do you get out of a) fanfiction in general and/or genfic; b) romantic, 'shipper fic, regardless of the genders and sexualities of the participants; and c) slash fic, especially m/m slash?

Well, I suppose at the heart of it, it's as much about entertainment and escapism as it is with any other book or movie or media form. I also have a tendency to fall heavily in love with a particular universe or scenario or character, so much so that the currently existing canon simply isn't sufficient for me. I want to exist in it longer, explore it more thoroughly. I love reading missing scenes and back stories, things that could have been or might yet be, things that explain away seeming inconsistencies or 'fix' what I wish could never have happened. There's also the joy of seeing what other people think of a particular canon, the inspiration they draw from it and the places they go with it. Fanfiction creates a curious kind of intersection between the way in which two or more people view the same object. I am really interested in seeing how that occurs, in how fanfiction helps create a fanon, or a popular perception of a particular character, or even how it can change people's perceptions of the source material overtime.

Het fic and slash fic (and to a lesser extent, femmeslash) are an extension of that interest in terms of things that I know are never going to be explored in certain source materials. Fanfiction can let a writer explore, say, John Sheppard's past, though there's every possibility that it will be touched on in canon yet (or maybe it already has been; TV episodes here are still behind the US); there's no chance that canon is ever going to feature explicit heterosexual content, or even non-explicit homosexual content.

Slash fic especially is an explicit fantasy on the part of the writer and the reader; it's a given that this is never going to happen, so it allows a freer reign to the fantasy element, in some ways. There is a lot of het and slash fic which is very well-written and plotted and similar to good gen fic in that regard; but there's an awful lot of it which does give free rein to that fantasy aspect. It's like a romance novel in that regard, though perhaps with slightly more of an element of transgressiveness to it because in some respects you are going against what someone has established in a book or movie.

Het and m/m fiction I also enjoy because, well, they're hot. I do read femmeslash, but not an awful lot, because I just don't find the female body sexually attractive. Aesthetically, yes; sexually, no. Erotic and PWP fanfiction are appealing to me because I'm much I see things so much more in text than images. Visual porn is the opposite of erotic for me; fanfiction is the exact opposite. In conclusion: porn, hot; boys, pretty, I guess.

2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?

I'm not entirely sure if I follow what you mean here. Certainly, there is as much of a difference between a gen fic and a het fic and a slash fic as there is between a Mills and Boone novel and a Dorothy L Sayers murder mystery, and you can gain differs accordingly. I think that in fanfiction and fandom as a whole, there is more of a communal element, especially since the fact that I have very few RL friends who are interested in genre books, TV or movies means that I have to consume those things in isolation; my experiences of canon and fanon are accordingly very different. I'm really not sure in what sense I can compare them with my RL, since I do try to keep the two separate. I would say that reading slash and thinking about it has made me re-evaluate my own stance on certain things. I do think much more differently than I did on first entering fandom.

[siria]

3. If you're a writer as well as a reader, do you derive a different sort of experience from writing than from reading? How do the two compare? (If you're a vidder or artist, please feel free to talk about that, too.)

I'm far from being a prolific writer, so I'm not sure if I am best qualified to answer this. I do think that when writing, I'm much more interested in what I want to see; it's much more self-indulgent (not, I think, necessarily in the selfish or negative sense of the word), and much more existing in the interstice between me and canon and my own personal wants. When it comes to reading fic, there's me and what I'm reading, the other fanfics I've read, other fanfiction by that particular author, meta I've read, fanon, etc. If that makes sense. I'm fairly selective about what I read (for time/preference reasons), but there are times when I will read something just because it hits a specific kink, and not because it's necessarily of a high subjective/objective kink. Whereas, as much as I know I'm being indulgent in what I right, I try my hardest to get it right.

4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?

I stumbled across fandom and slash fandom entirely by accident. I had just got a computer and an internet connection of my own for the first time, entered the name of a favourite author of mine into a search engine to see how one worked, and saw something called 'fanfiction' linked to in one of the first results. I followed the link, and eventually found myself involved in fandom. I'd never heard of slash before the Harry Potter fandom; it wasn't something which had ever occurred to me. But I was curious, started reading one or two pieces, got hooked, and now I'd say it's easily 70% of what I read. I stay around because of the enjoyment factor, because of the sense of community and friendship I've found (I've met the people I would consider my best friends here), and because I genuinely find the slash phenomenon to be incredibly interesting. (The dear knows if you scroll down to the "[slash]" section or "[fandom] Sociology" section here you'll see I read enough about it to make that obvious)

5. Why do you think slash fandom and slash fiction are the phenomena that they are?

I think because it's an example of a space that is overwhelmingly created by women for women, where you can explore your own sexuality or create or just discuss things that you couldn't normally freely do in offline society. I can't think of a social space that I have access to, or that I even know exists, in RL that is similar to slash fandom in that regard. I know that I could never talk about my online activities with family or with most of my RL friends, because I would be greeted with blank stares at the very, very best.

The fact that so much of the fandom takes place online is also important, I'd say. Not only does it help to bring together a remarkably intelligent, engaged and focused group of people from all over the world, there is also an element of anonymity to the whole thing, pseudonyms and facelessness. It aids the fantasy/creative element, because you can be pretty much whoever you want to be, imagine whatever you want, and be almost certain that you won't face repercussions because of it.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether to lead with OMG YOU'RE AT TRINITY?! or OMG HE WROTE FANFICTION?!? (WHERE?) But, uh, to address the first: no, not stalkery at all! Cool, even: my first reaction is to go, "At Trinity? On LJ? Fannish? Hang with meeeeeeee!" Um, unless that's too stalkery. *g*

As for the dear Dr. Jones--he is fabulous, isn't he? And you know, I shouldn't actually be that surprised that he's written fic, as he mentioned The Republic of Pemberley and Austen fic in general in one of his lectures. Does he have stories there?

Finally, thank you for your response to my questions. Believe it or not, I think you're the first person to mention fanon, or at least to discuss it in any detail. So that's excellently helpful--thanks.

And look, I already stole one of your icons. Now that? That's stalkery. ;-)

[siria]

*g* It is so very, very rare to find people who are fannish, on LJ, and at TCD. I know of only three others, which seems ridiculously low in a student body of 16,000 or so. And we all three of us only have one real shared fandom (Harry Potter), which sucks considering that my current obsession interest is Stargate. I'm reduced to taping the Stargates to watch on Thursday mornings with only tea for company, which sucks; because heaven knows half the fun of the show is either giggling over it with someone else, or exclaiming over the hot with someone else.

Unfortunately, I only had Dr. Jones for one year - I was a masochist in second year and took on an additional course in English literature outside of my actual degree courses. Actually, I've been masochistic like that most years. But I digress - and it was during the lecture on Jane Austen that he mentioned fanfiction. I gave a little squeak, and nearly fell off my seat; that was even before he started mentioning Austen fansites (and ones I used to post on, at that) and that he had written fic himself. I don't think it was a serious attempt on his part, though. He said he wrote something to post on the Republic of Pemberley as a test, because they are notoriously puritanical about their views of Austen's writing, and what is 'acceptable' fanfiction. I think he said he was rejected because he 'displayed an insufficient understanding of Austen's works.' Which of course all of us found very, very amusing. I have no idea if it's still online somewhere on one of the other two archives, though, or even what name he posted under, worse luck.

I'm so glad you like the icon :) Rodney is so fantastic to icon - he has such a malleable face - and quotations from Oscar Wilde just seem to fit him so well, for some reason which may possibly be vaguely connected to a sarcastic nature on his part. ;)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I know no one here who's fannish. Part of this is probably because I know a total of, like, ten people (I'm a visiting student), but it's sad to hear that the percentage doesn't increase with sample size. On the other hand, at least there's somebody.

I made similar squeaking, chair-quaking movements when Dr. Jones mentioned fanfic--I was so ecstatic, I actually posted about it; it's f-locked, but I added you in case you're desperate to read it *g* (it's here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/trinityofone/28053.html)). And you know what? I have to go to Dr. Jones' office hours on Tuesday to talk to him about my paper--I'm going to ask him about his fanfic! I'm gonna demand links, dammit!

Hear, hear to your comments about Rodney's face. His eyes, his chin, his mouth--they're so expressive. I could stare at him for hours. Um, this may not be purely about aesthetics. ;-) The Wilde quote is perfect, too, and I'm especially amused since I got the idea for my latest fic while reading The Importance of Being Earnest. (Though in the end, it would be generous to describe the connection as even "tangential"...a lot of my ideas are like that.)

If you ever need someone to squee about SGA with, I am eager and willing. I've got the episodes up through "Epiphany," too...

[siria]

There are! We few, we happy few, we band of slashers. *g*

Your account of his lecture does indeed sound very, very like him. I think in the class I had him for, he tended more to describe the JA fen as 'slightly mental.' Which, again, I wouldn't disagree with.

(Re: the history tutorial from hell that you talk about in the same post. You didn't have Meg N., did you? She can be horribly, horribly vague at times, and her sense of humour tends much, much more towards the dry and sarcastic, so maybe she didn't get your humour. And I know this always comes as a shock to a visiting student, but 50% isn't bad. Trinity likes to be very archaic (this practice goes back to at least the 19th century, if not earlier, that I know of), and only grades out of 80%. I mean, it's theoretically possible to be marked out of 100%, but it's acknowledged that they don't do that, because it's considered impossible for an undergrad to write a perfect paper. They give out firsts (over 70%) very, very rarely as well, because they loathe any accusations of grade inflation. I got a first for my last paper, and that was my first grade at that level in a while.

And at least count yourself lucky that you have a TA who can ask questions about the topic. My historiography TA last year was a complete nightmare. We were assigned Said's Orientalism to read in one week, which was a bit of a struggle since it is so very, very dense and layered. When I asked the TA about a particular concept I was having trouble getting, he said "Oh, I wouldn't know, I couldn't get past page twenty." And he was teaching a class on it. *facepalm*)

You really should ask Dr. Jones about his fanfic! And share the links when you get it, because now I'm curious, dammit. *g*

Fic inspired by Wilde? Yay! *scampers off to find it* (Oh! You're the person who wrote the SGA/HDM crossover! I adored that; it delighted me on so many levels. Why do I not seem to have commented on that? So good, so good.)

That would be fantastic! I'm following them along on TV at the moment, but that means I'm only up to Instinct, which puts me tragically behind the rest of fandom.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

the history tutorial from hell that you talk about in the same post. You didn't have Meg N., did you?

No, I had Eve M. And I know (intellectually, anyway--anything below, well, to be honest, a 90, still makes me ouchy on a gut level) that a 50% isn't bad. It wasn't the mark that bothered me so much, or the idea that the loss of points was due to a joke, but the fact that she didn't seem to realize that it was a joke at all. Especially because the only other alternative was for her to think that I'm really seriously stupid. I don't know if I have an intellectual inferiority complex or what, but that really bugs me.

"Oh, I wouldn't know, I couldn't get past page twenty." And he was teaching a class on it. *facepalm*

Yeah, that'd bug me, too. *g* Like my Sherlock Holmes tutor who hadn't read any Sherlock Holmes. It kind of makes me want to jump up on my desk and scream, "OMG! Do you want me to teach the class! *assorted creative expletives*"

share the links when you get it, because now I'm curious, dammit. *g*

Absolutely! I have my fingers crossed.

Fic inspired by Wilde? Yay! *scampers off to find it*

Eh, don't get your hopes up. I got the idea while reading Wilde, which isn't really the same thing. My very odd thought process was something like: Heh, Chasuble is celibate but obviously has the hots for Miss Prism-->Wouldn't it be funny if John were celibate but obviously had the hots for Rodney?-->Wouldn't it be funny if John were a priest and Rodney seduced him?-->OMG PRIEST PORN. Which, actually, didn't end up being that funny at all.

(May this serve as a warning to you: my brain is weird.)

Oh! You're the person who wrote the SGA/HDM crossover! I adored that; it delighted me on so many levels.

Oh, thank you so much! And hey--I'm infamous! Yaaaay!

I'm following them along on TV at the moment, but that means I'm only up to Instinct, which puts me tragically behind the rest of fandom.

"Instinct"? Cliff-hangery "Instinct"? That is tragic! We must rectify this! Maybe some time after classes are over?

*is compelled to use your icon again*

[siria]

Ah. I don't think I know her; probably because I'm pretty much a medievalist/archaeologist, and like to stick to that side of the department. Which is great in one sense, because the medieval history department is prone to holding seminar sessions in pubs and cafes *g*

Especially because the only other alternative was for her to think that I'm really seriously stupid. I don't know if I have an intellectual inferiority complex or what, but that really bugs me.

No, I think I'd probably react in the same way. That's the problem with a lot of the TAs; they're not really very good teachers, and a lot of them are only teaching because it's a requirement for their postgrad course. They're not good at communicating, and they tend to criticise rather than give concrit. On the plus side, I don't think those short commentaries count for a very high percentage of your final mark (unless things are very different for visiting students), so that's something less to worry about.

Like my Sherlock Holmes tutor who hadn't read any Sherlock Holmes. It kind of makes me want to jump up on my desk and scream, "OMG! Do you want me to teach the class! *assorted creative expletives*"

What? But how can you reach a certain age in the western world and not have read any Sherlock Holmes? That's... oh, there are times when I love this university, and there are times when it makes me want to dance from rage.

I've just read the priest porn and holy hell (if you will forgive the pun). Maybe it's just because I classify myself as a Recovering Irish Catholic, but that was hot on so many levels. It keyed into the residual guilt thing so well. *is required to use the Shep!porn icon on the basis of this alone*

"Instinct"? Cliff-hangery "Instinct"? That is tragic!

I know! Because everyone I talk to on IM is like, "Oh, that's the one that leads into... but I can't say!" Irish TV sucks by times.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

No, you're right: the assignment didn't even really count for anything. Mostly I was just annoyed because she bugged me. I'm nothing if not mature. ;-)

But how can you reach a certain age in the western world and not have read any Sherlock Holmes?

I. Don't. Know! But somehow, I was the only one in the whole class who'd read anything besides the one book we were assigned. (And hey, look--I ranted about that, too! (http://www.livejournal.com/users/trinityofone/30188.html) I am rantalicious. Or just, y'know, complainy.)

Berkeley was just as bad, though. But for some reason, I expected you Europeans to be smarter. ;-)

Oooh, Shep!porn icon! Excellent; I'm honored. And I'm glad you liked the story--I'm still kind of shocked that I actually wrote it. Normally I just throw stuff like out there and never follow up on it. Apparently, waking up at 4 a.m. makes me all committed and stuff. *shrug*

BTW, if you're really desperate for new SGA, and have downloading capabilities, you should join stargate_eps. Look for isiscolo's post--she's got all of S2 up on her site, I think. But whatever you don't get to, I'd be glad to supply. =)

[siria]

Later I mentioned something from "The Speckled Band." Whaaaaa? "A Scandal in Bohemia." Whaaaaa? The Hound of the Baskervilles. Yup: Whaaaaaaaaaa?

To misappropriate the term: Whaaaaa? I'm sorry, but Sherlock Holmes is a classic of Victorian/Edwardian literature. To say that you've not read it while reading for an English degree is like saying you've never read Great Expectations or Dracula or Heart of Darkness. *winces* On behalf of my people, I apologise. I thoroughly approve of the ranting; I am forced to get my rant on, oh, at least five times a week, especially given the people I'm living with this year. They've taken to watching Rome with me, and so far I've had to tell them that no, homosexuality wasn't illegal back then, and no, cultural mores are relative, and yes, if you lived then you would be married with children by now, and yes, that is a man's penis, don't worry, they don't bite. *sighs*

Berkeley was just as bad, though. But for some reason, I expected you Europeans to be smarter. ;-)

A common misconception ;) There are some things that we're ahead of compared to you guys when we start college because of the level of our secondary schools, but when it comes to reading outside of college/our discipline, there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of difference.

Normally I just throw stuff like out there and never follow up on it. Apparently, waking up at 4 a.m. makes me all committed and stuff. *shrug*

There is something about 4am which makes all actions thought about or taken at that time seem wise and desirable. (Though I can tell you right now, that if they involve climbing a tree? Then they are probably not)

BTW, if you're really desperate for new SGA, and have downloading capabilities, you should join [info]stargate_eps. Look for [info]isiscolo's post--she's got all of S2 up on her site, I think. But whatever you don't get to, I'd be glad to supply. =)

I'm already a member of stargate_eps, but I don't like to use it so much, because the only place where I have access to high speed internet is college (and you probably know just how much the IS Services in this place suck). I'm also trying to pace myself to one episode a week as a treat for myself; that's proving damn hard, though. Especially since, once I go home for the holidays, I will have neither high speed internet access nor access to the satellite channel that SGA is showing on. Argh, dilemma. I'll probably give in and watch them, though; the siren call of Shep and McKay is strong indeed.