Rite of Passage
Nov. 30th, 2005 06:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
trinityofoneThere comes a time in every young fangirl's life when, should she still reside amongst the chalk-dust lecture halls and book-dust libraries of academia, she must pick up the mantle and write an academic paper about slash. And for me, brothers and sisters (mostly sisters), that time has come.
Basically what happened was this: my popular literature class had a guest lecturer, Prof. McCarthy. She was giving a talk on Poppy Z. Brite's Exquisite Corpse (which, embarrassingly, I still have not been able to find), and in doing so, she talked about serial killers in both history and literature, and provided us with some great quotes. (One of my favorites, Paul Anthony Woods on Norman Bates: "He registers in our hearts as one of the most loveable sickos of pop culture.") Then she showed us selected postings from the Yahoo!Group JeffreyDahmerClub. If you click on the link, which I do NOT recommend, you'll see some of what she showed us: people (mostly women) talking about how much they love Jeffrey Dahmer, how they feel he was just misunderstood, how hot he is--all very serious and earnest. I was, needless to say, disturbed by this. Especially because one of the first thoughts that entered my mind was: "Jesus, these people must've been on Yahoo!Groups talking about their love for a serial killer at the exact same time I, fresh-faced and 17, was there posting about my love for Spike."
...At which point I would like to take a time out and say: Fuck you, David Fury.
But ANYWAY...just then Prof. McCarthy said something about how both serial killers and their fans exhibit an "obsessive and insatiable" need for more, more, more. And then she brought up slash.
Slash readers and writers--the term was of course defined for the giggling audience, with the inevitable Kirk/Spock example and an increase in giggling--exhibit, said McCarthy, the same need for more of their chosen type of media: more story, more sexual tension, more sex. Brite, not a slash fan, has bemoaned the fact that while "real" writers will work hard to "create real, complex, multidimensional characters with lives that need no 'improvement' by the peanut gallery, all some readers really want is for [the characters] to fall into a huge rutting jizz-drenched scrum" (Fan Nine from Outer Space). Prof. McCarthy didn't specifically disagree with Brite; mostly she just drew the obvious connections between sex and violence, making, IMO, rather too big a deal about the possible violent connotations of the word "slash." I really wasn't quite sure what she was trying to say, actually; but more than that, I was disturbed that my mind had made the leap from Jeffrey Dahmer fandom to our fandom first, and without being prompted.
After the lecture, there was a question and answer period. I debated whether I should say anything--I didn't want to "out" myself to a room full of strangers, and I wasn't sure how to neutrally phrase a question, or even what I wanted to ask. Finally, I raised my hand and mumbled something about how, while I definitely saw the connection between obsessive-compulsive, insatiable behaviour and slash fandom, didn't Prof. McCarthy think it might have less to do with violence, and more to do with (here I stumbled, wanting to say--I think--love) romance novels? You know, the type little old ladies check out from the library, the type with Fabio on the cover? Prof. McCarthy conceded that this might be so. Class dismissed.
I left unsatisfied. I thought about just going home and writing a bitchy, dismissive post about how we are NOT like that. Yet I was still bothered by the fact that my brain had made the connection first. And what are we, if not obsessive and insatiable? What does that make us--serial readers? Serial writers? Why do we do what we do?
So I went to Dr. Jones' office hours and outed myself as a slasher.
The meeting began less than promisingly, as he greeted me by saying, "Aren't you the student that asked the question about Fabio?" I admitted that I was, and that yes, I am from Berkeley, and that yes (feeling quite the stereotype), I would like to talk more about the gay porn, please.
Dr. Jones said he was "fascinated by this phenomenon known as 'slash.'" I said I was quite an expert, but that the lecture that morning had made me think about why we did it--why I did it. One of our class' essay titles is "Write an essay on why you think formulaic writing is so popular"--could I, I inquired, write an essay about slash?
His response was enthusiastic. Very enthusiastic. Did I mention that I rather adore him? I do, I do.
Anyway, he introduced me to Prof. Silver, whom he called "the university's resident slash expert." Unfortunately, this is not an actual tenured position--too bad, 'cause nice as Prof. Silver was, I could totally have beaten her out for it. She really didn't know much about internet fandom at all, but she gave me a great book--Constance Penley's NASA/TREK, which I highly recommend, despite the fact that it's old and thus deals mostly with 'zines--and even better, a lot of encouragement. In return, I gave her links to some classic fandom stuff--she'd never heard of the Very Secret Diaries! *gasp*--and, when pressed, some of my own stories. (Yikes!) When I come out, I come out hard--bringing the clothes, the hangers, and the dust bunnies with me.
So now--
The short version: I now have just over a weak to write a paper about Why We Slash. I think I can pull together the more academic, sociological sources, but for the rest, I need your help. I want this paper to be different from other writings about slash and fandom: I'm not going to distance myself; rather, I'm going to get permission to write in the first person and include myself in the analysis. I don't want to be yet another judgmental outsider looking in (or down) on "this phenomenon known as slash"; I'm a part of it, I'm not going to deny it, and that gives me a unique perspective.
But I need other people's perspectives--other people's insights--too. So, fellow fandom folks: if you could take the time to answer the following questions, I would be deeply appreciative.
1. What do you get out of a) fanfiction in general and/or genfic; b) romantic, 'shipper fic, regardless of the genders and sexualities of the participants; and c) slash fic, especially m/m slash?
2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?
3. If you're a writer as well as a reader, do you derive a different sort of experience from writing than from reading? How do the two compare? (If you're a vidder or artist, please feel free to talk about that, too.)
4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?
5. Why do you think slash fandom and slash fiction are the phenomena that they are?
If you want to provide info about age, gender, sexual preference, when you entered fandom or how long you've been in it, it would be interesting and useful, but obviously, I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. With that in mind, anyone who'd prefer to take this out of a public forum can also e-mail me at kaufmaa@tcd.ie . You can also comment anonymously, though I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some sort of alias in case I choose to quote you.
With that in mind: unless you tell me otherwise, any quotes I pull will be attributed to your LJ username (minus the LJ distinction, of course.) So if I were quoting myself, I might say: "'I'm in it for the porn, baby!' said one writer, trinityofone. 'Porn, porn, porn--that's what the internet is for!'"* If you'd prefer to be quoted under a different name, just tell me what it is. But don't get too panicky: this paper will most likely be seen by no one other than Dr. Jones, Prof. McCarthy, Prof. Silver, and myself. And we're all very discreet. ;-)
Finally, PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD. Which is to say: the red light is on, I have multiple varieties of condoms (some are flavored!), but right now I'm all by my lonesome, so I need you to pimp, pimp, pimp. Also, if anyone knows of any communities where I might be able to rustle up some participants, that'd be fab.
So in conclusion: let me know if you have any questions, and thanks in advance!
*Actually, I read slash for the articles. 'The' is a good one; so's 'a.' ...And after that display of dorkery, we're all going to pretend this footnote doesn't exist.
Basically what happened was this: my popular literature class had a guest lecturer, Prof. McCarthy. She was giving a talk on Poppy Z. Brite's Exquisite Corpse (which, embarrassingly, I still have not been able to find), and in doing so, she talked about serial killers in both history and literature, and provided us with some great quotes. (One of my favorites, Paul Anthony Woods on Norman Bates: "He registers in our hearts as one of the most loveable sickos of pop culture.") Then she showed us selected postings from the Yahoo!Group JeffreyDahmerClub. If you click on the link, which I do NOT recommend, you'll see some of what she showed us: people (mostly women) talking about how much they love Jeffrey Dahmer, how they feel he was just misunderstood, how hot he is--all very serious and earnest. I was, needless to say, disturbed by this. Especially because one of the first thoughts that entered my mind was: "Jesus, these people must've been on Yahoo!Groups talking about their love for a serial killer at the exact same time I, fresh-faced and 17, was there posting about my love for Spike."
...At which point I would like to take a time out and say: Fuck you, David Fury.
But ANYWAY...just then Prof. McCarthy said something about how both serial killers and their fans exhibit an "obsessive and insatiable" need for more, more, more. And then she brought up slash.
Slash readers and writers--the term was of course defined for the giggling audience, with the inevitable Kirk/Spock example and an increase in giggling--exhibit, said McCarthy, the same need for more of their chosen type of media: more story, more sexual tension, more sex. Brite, not a slash fan, has bemoaned the fact that while "real" writers will work hard to "create real, complex, multidimensional characters with lives that need no 'improvement' by the peanut gallery, all some readers really want is for [the characters] to fall into a huge rutting jizz-drenched scrum" (Fan Nine from Outer Space). Prof. McCarthy didn't specifically disagree with Brite; mostly she just drew the obvious connections between sex and violence, making, IMO, rather too big a deal about the possible violent connotations of the word "slash." I really wasn't quite sure what she was trying to say, actually; but more than that, I was disturbed that my mind had made the leap from Jeffrey Dahmer fandom to our fandom first, and without being prompted.
After the lecture, there was a question and answer period. I debated whether I should say anything--I didn't want to "out" myself to a room full of strangers, and I wasn't sure how to neutrally phrase a question, or even what I wanted to ask. Finally, I raised my hand and mumbled something about how, while I definitely saw the connection between obsessive-compulsive, insatiable behaviour and slash fandom, didn't Prof. McCarthy think it might have less to do with violence, and more to do with (here I stumbled, wanting to say--I think--love) romance novels? You know, the type little old ladies check out from the library, the type with Fabio on the cover? Prof. McCarthy conceded that this might be so. Class dismissed.
I left unsatisfied. I thought about just going home and writing a bitchy, dismissive post about how we are NOT like that. Yet I was still bothered by the fact that my brain had made the connection first. And what are we, if not obsessive and insatiable? What does that make us--serial readers? Serial writers? Why do we do what we do?
So I went to Dr. Jones' office hours and outed myself as a slasher.
The meeting began less than promisingly, as he greeted me by saying, "Aren't you the student that asked the question about Fabio?" I admitted that I was, and that yes, I am from Berkeley, and that yes (feeling quite the stereotype), I would like to talk more about the gay porn, please.
Dr. Jones said he was "fascinated by this phenomenon known as 'slash.'" I said I was quite an expert, but that the lecture that morning had made me think about why we did it--why I did it. One of our class' essay titles is "Write an essay on why you think formulaic writing is so popular"--could I, I inquired, write an essay about slash?
His response was enthusiastic. Very enthusiastic. Did I mention that I rather adore him? I do, I do.
Anyway, he introduced me to Prof. Silver, whom he called "the university's resident slash expert." Unfortunately, this is not an actual tenured position--too bad, 'cause nice as Prof. Silver was, I could totally have beaten her out for it. She really didn't know much about internet fandom at all, but she gave me a great book--Constance Penley's NASA/TREK, which I highly recommend, despite the fact that it's old and thus deals mostly with 'zines--and even better, a lot of encouragement. In return, I gave her links to some classic fandom stuff--she'd never heard of the Very Secret Diaries! *gasp*--and, when pressed, some of my own stories. (Yikes!) When I come out, I come out hard--bringing the clothes, the hangers, and the dust bunnies with me.
So now--
The short version: I now have just over a weak to write a paper about Why We Slash. I think I can pull together the more academic, sociological sources, but for the rest, I need your help. I want this paper to be different from other writings about slash and fandom: I'm not going to distance myself; rather, I'm going to get permission to write in the first person and include myself in the analysis. I don't want to be yet another judgmental outsider looking in (or down) on "this phenomenon known as slash"; I'm a part of it, I'm not going to deny it, and that gives me a unique perspective.
But I need other people's perspectives--other people's insights--too. So, fellow fandom folks: if you could take the time to answer the following questions, I would be deeply appreciative.
1. What do you get out of a) fanfiction in general and/or genfic; b) romantic, 'shipper fic, regardless of the genders and sexualities of the participants; and c) slash fic, especially m/m slash?
2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?
3. If you're a writer as well as a reader, do you derive a different sort of experience from writing than from reading? How do the two compare? (If you're a vidder or artist, please feel free to talk about that, too.)
4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?
5. Why do you think slash fandom and slash fiction are the phenomena that they are?
If you want to provide info about age, gender, sexual preference, when you entered fandom or how long you've been in it, it would be interesting and useful, but obviously, I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. With that in mind, anyone who'd prefer to take this out of a public forum can also e-mail me at kaufmaa@tcd.ie . You can also comment anonymously, though I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some sort of alias in case I choose to quote you.
With that in mind: unless you tell me otherwise, any quotes I pull will be attributed to your LJ username (minus the LJ distinction, of course.) So if I were quoting myself, I might say: "'I'm in it for the porn, baby!' said one writer, trinityofone. 'Porn, porn, porn--that's what the internet is for!'"* If you'd prefer to be quoted under a different name, just tell me what it is. But don't get too panicky: this paper will most likely be seen by no one other than Dr. Jones, Prof. McCarthy, Prof. Silver, and myself. And we're all very discreet. ;-)
Finally, PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD. Which is to say: the red light is on, I have multiple varieties of condoms (some are flavored!), but right now I'm all by my lonesome, so I need you to pimp, pimp, pimp. Also, if anyone knows of any communities where I might be able to rustle up some participants, that'd be fab.
So in conclusion: let me know if you have any questions, and thanks in advance!
*Actually, I read slash for the articles. 'The' is a good one; so's 'a.' ...And after that display of dorkery, we're all going to pretend this footnote doesn't exist.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 07:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 07:51 pm (UTC)1a) Some stories leave you wanting to know more. I've been wallowing (there's no better word) in Harry Potter fic recently, and I recently mused on how many fic-possible levels there are. There's the whole wizarding world, of course, but there are also collections of characters to explore: the Founders, the teachers and their histories, the Marauders and the parents of current students, and the current students. All their stories intertwine, all their backgrounds are relevant. The current war with Voldemort involves more than just the kids. One starts mulling the possibilities and wants to see what talented writers can make of things.
b&c) I suppose I don't make much of a difference between shipper fic and slash fic. In my world, "slash" just means a relationship between people not explicitly paired in the canon of the show. Basic shipper fic lets you play mix and match with the personalities of the characters, seeing how they play off each other. I personally prefer m/m stories because we don't get to see many such stories in the current world. It's not so much "hotties getting sweaty"--really explicit stuff gets boring for me, it all just becomes choreography after a while--but the emotional relationship. Men in our world don't get to express feelings that often. I'd be very happy if there were more stories about strong men falling for equally strong women and vice versa. Until then, I really enjoy watching two strong guys get to the point where they can let down their guards. Tough guys with authentic feelings are very watchable.
2. I'm not sure I understand the question. I will read good writing even if the relationships don't go one step beyond what was expressed in canon. However, if the writing isn't good (interesting plot, engaging characterization), I won't read stories about my favorite pairings. It's not enough to "see" Spike and Xander snuggled together if the writer hasn't given me a plausible reason to be together or if they're unrecognizable characters in familiar masks.
3. I've never tried to articulate the difference between writing and reading. I've done a lot of writing, primarily in the Buffy/Angel verse. I write because I don't want to lose the stories in my head. I love playing "What if" with the characters and seeing where they lead, especially when they surprise me. I've gotten fairly hooked on sharing the stories and seeing people enjoy them, but the writing happens because there are things in my head that I need to clear out to make room for more stories. It's the story, first and foremost, in reading and writing, who did what, and why. When I read, I want to believe in what I'm reading, be pulled in and care what happens.
4. I wondered if there were other people out there interested in what I was interested in. Primarily I was looking for an audience for my writing, to see if it sucked or not. I'm not widely active in fandom activities, just keeping passing track of what's going on. I stay for the people. I've never met any of the folks in the three-dimensional world, but I've sent and received wonderful notes and gifts. Internet friends can be just as real and loving as meatspace friends.
5. I honestly believe that you have to be a better writer to pull off slash. There are tremendously talented writers who do only gen or canon relationship fics, but on the whole you need more ambition to start pairing off people in new combinations.
Maybe it's because strong characters are appealing, and most of the strong characters you see are men. Yes, there are exceptions, but having to point out the Buffys and Zoes etc. makes the fact that they're exceptions more noticeable. Men don't have to explain why they're off having adventures, and adventures are fun.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 08:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 08:25 pm (UTC)As for the questions... I'd like to have a think about them and get back to you. It seems worth actually taking time to do. (I'm totally not going to use this to procrastinate in doing translation for Latin. Not at all. *whistles innocently*)
Oh, and... *waves hi* I've friended you because I love what you write, and now I'm finding it comes with all sorts of cool bonuses. Like an academic look at slash, for instance.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 08:45 pm (UTC)First of all, seriously, £5.59 on amazon.co.uk. Cheaper used, even! It's absolutely worth it; you'll either be absolutely in love with it or so horrified you're delighted (my reaction depends mostly on the day). I mean, seriously, any book that's someone going "Well, what if Jeffrey Dahmer (except from New Orleans, and fabulously wealthy, and a drug addict, because Poppy's characters are nothing if not distinct from each other) and Dennis Nilsen fell in love?" can't be all bad. Also, angry gay rantings, and more bizarre expression of Poppy's yellow fever! (No seriously, the one time I read a short story of hers and the gay Thai kid was listening to the Cure? I actually started laughing it was so clear this kid would be dead in ten pages.) And ... now I'm really regretting not bringing it back with me when I went home this past weekend, woe.
Also, for the record — and Certain Friends of mine and I have, in fact, discussed this at length — Jeffrey Dahmer? As serial killers go? Totally hot. I mean let's be honest here: Dahmer (http://www.tornadohills.com/dahmer/renamed2/dahmer811.gif). Gacy (http://www.prairieghosts.com/gacy.gif). Fish (http://killer.radom.net/~sermord/images/mordercy_FishAlbert1.jpg). Take yer pick.
... Okay, that particular descent into perversion over. Can I just mention the fact — and I'm sure I've mentioned this before; I've told
But at any rate, I think the link between serial killing and slash writing is ... tenuous, at absolute best. Yes, there's an insatiable desire for more more more, but so there is with alcoholics, so there is with fashionistas, so there is with wine conniseurs and people who watch seveteen TV shows a week and the Grateful Dead fans who are currently getting angry because the band shut down a bootleg site. So there is with the fact that I have actually handed my wallet to other people before heading into the Sanrio store. So there is with the fact that I own NSYNC lip gloss.
That someone would, in a professional, academic capacity, draw parallels between desire — and the creative expression thereof, no less — and murder ... I see where she was coming from, but that strikes me as absolutely wrong, especially talking to an (essentially) uninformed audience.
I mean, I can take that with a grain of salt — I've been reading (and occasionally writing) slash for ten years; I've curled up with serial killer stories when I'm feeling mopey; I've read a fuckload of Poppy Z Brite. I'd probably have been cracking the fuck up during that lecture.
But a group of students who had to have slash defined for them, then being told it's just like serial killing? That is 100% Not Kosher.
Also, she obviously knew nothing about X-Files fandom (or most, really, but that one sticks out in particular) if she thought this sort of thing was exclusive to those of us who like The Gay Sex; let me tell you, man, the 'shippers were at least as scary as the slashers.
So basically um: grr, argh. And good luck on your paper! And yes, I will pimp this out for you. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:04 pm (UTC)1. What do you get out of a) fanfiction in general and/or genfic; b) romantic, 'shipper fic, regardless of the genders and sexualities of the participants; and c) slash fic, especially m/m slash?
a) for me fanfiction in general is about improving my experience of the source material--whether by simply providing more of it when there wasn't enough (as, for example, the genfic "virtual seasons" of popular tv shows), by dealing with the same stuff only with better writing, or by explaining away logical inconsistencies in canon. here i would like to refer you to
b) the quote above is a nice segue/answer to the second item too. people want to see romantic resolutions they don't get in canon--whether that romance is actually canonical in some way or completely imaginary.
c) slash fic is much like het shipper fic in that respect--they can both deliver romance, smut, etc. what does slash offer that het doesn't, in my view? it: (1) allows and indeed forces you to indentify with a male protagonist. (2) is all about gayness (and if you're queer yourself, you may just enjoy hanging out with queer things and queer people--having your existence and your group membership externally affirmed, as it were)(of course many slashers are straight women, so that doesn't apply to them, but i think the percentage of bis seems to be on the rise). (3) is one of the few remaining reliable and efficient ways to introduce a big barrier of taboo and element of the forbidden into a romance.
those are the inherent properties of any m/m.
i want to also speak more concretely. my mother's an addict of paperback romance novels, harlequins (not the kind with fabio on the cover, but the contemporaries and regencies), and i was to an extent raised on those. i'm a romance addict, and in my opinion romance, sensuality and erotica have reached a higher evolution in [the good parts of] slash than they have in any mainstream literature. i know i'm not alone here; i've discussed it before with
continued... i apologise for the length, but i figure you can skim and cut it all if you want, so.
Date: 2005-11-30 09:05 pm (UTC)a) fic that isn't romantically focused is vastly different from fic that is. all the genres of literature exist in fanfiction too, and what you get from a romance is very different from what you get from a mystery-adventure or a comedy.
b) sometimes you get a lot of the same things from fiction as from source material. some fan writers are inspired by and devoted to canon, trying to reproduce the tone and mood and overall feel, the genre, the characterisation, the theme--even within the context of slash or shipper fic, although obviously in those two cases the canon can be slightly modified. then there are writers who aren't overly concerned with their source material at all, or who even dislike it and prefer to write according to fanon. obviously they produce very different kinds of stories, and it's possible to enjoy both, but in different ways. if you like a show and a story does an excellent job of reproducing its qualities, you will probably like the story. for fanon-based stories the pull would be something different: perhaps you like one element of the show or one idea but don't like it so much as a whole, and a fanon-based story takes the parts you like and replaces the parts you dislike with something more congenial.
c) certainly the average life doesn't include nearly as much smut and romance as slash fandom does. neither do most of the other things you could be reading as an escape.
3. If you're a writer as well as a reader, do you derive a different sort of experience from writing than from reading? How do the two compare? (If you're a vidder or artist, please feel free to talk about that, too.)
for me, the process of writing a piece of fanfiction revolves around two things: canon, and me. there's canon, which i constantly refer to and think about, and then there's the stuff i'm making up--according to an inner plan, a personal wish of my own, but which i'm constantly trying to merge seamlessly with canon. writing a slash romance is about bridging the gap between where the characters are in canon (usually not even apparently gay, sometimes apparently straight; sometimes not even sharing a very close relationship with each other), and where you want to put them at the end of the story (usually in a sexual or romantic relationship of some kind). you can't just fill that gap in with whatever you want; it's about making your filler blend seamlessly across, like a gradient. in that way, your relationship with canon is very... involved, possibly dynamic and very messy, while you're working.
when i'm reading fic, on the other hand, there's the story i'm reading, there's the canon i'm comparing it to, there's me, and there's the fandom as a whole, the body of all the other literature i've read about that show, or that pairing; or all the other stories i've read with that plot, regardless of fandom. i compare the story to canon, to my own personal preferences for slash, to all the other stories that i've read.
so in a way, i'd say reading takes my thoughts further away from canon. of course, there are other ways they're different--reading is easier, more passive (though not completely passive). it rarely gives you the same high of accomplishment that writing can, but on the other hand, if you've ever felt the horrible lack of a story and eventually had to write it for yourself, you know that that is never a complete substitute to getting to read it written by someone else.
4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?
when i first stumbled into slash, with just one erotic forbidden gay romance story, i found it incredibly compelling. i read it over and over again, but i had no idea why i was so compelled. that feeling and that curiosity led me to seek out other slash to read, and as i got more used to it the initial shock wore off, but i still find it exciting in a way. (which segues nicely to #5.)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:05 pm (UTC)Not just the X-Files fandom, yo. In the Alias fandom (back when the show was actually good *sigh*) the shippers were a hell of a lot scarier than the slashers. Mainly because there were maybe a dozen slashers and kajillions of shippers who were either twelve years old or acted like it, but I think this is the case in a lot of fandoms as well. Harry Potter, for instance. (Although anyone who's lurked on discussion of fandom - for lack of a better word - politics in the HP fandom could probably argue that...)
the end
Date: 2005-11-30 09:07 pm (UTC)that really seems to be the big question for decades now. i'm still curious about it; i still think about it a lot of the time. but right now, i would say that in my opinion the factors which draw and keep the greatest numbers of people are: 1) the forbidden, taboo aspect i mentioned in 1.c(3). i know i've heard
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:07 pm (UTC)(disclaimer: I love the books! I love the movies even! I have read extensively and written in the fandom!)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:11 pm (UTC)That being said, some of the best writers I've ever read were in the HP fandom -
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:20 pm (UTC)I got into this with
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:29 pm (UTC)2- I do get different things from different fandoms. There are some fandoms where I'm really focused on the slash or the romantic fic above all else and there are other fandoms where I read almost exclusively gen. But in all fandoms I'm looking for something more than or different from what the source material gives me. For example, in Hornblower, one of my primary fandoms, I am mostly uninterested in the kind of long gen adventure stories that make up one segment of the fandom. I don't want more stories just like the source material, I want stories that give me something more, that explore the subtext that's practically leaping off the page or screen, or ignore the subtext but nevertheless take a different perspective on the characters or the world then the original authors/creators did.
4) my primary reason for entering fandom was the desire for more, more stories, more time with the characters, etc. But what's made me stay is the community. I love that fandom is a community of people who aren't satisfied with being passive consumers and instead want to be active participants in the stories we love. We discuss, we debate, we analyze and explore and we bounce ideas and concepts off of each other and we sustain and encourage each other.
5) I think fandom in general and slash fandom in particular are such a phenomenon because of the community. There is clearly something about the stories slash tells that appeals to a lot of people and fandom lets those people come together and realize that they are not alone in their interest.
I am 25, bisexual, unmarried but dating two women at the moment, and I entered fandom when I was 19 and first really got on the internet. My first fandom was fairly exclusively het, but I now read slash/het/poly and gen pretty much equally, depending on what's prevalent in the fandoms I'm obsessed with at the moment. And you can quote me as FairestCat or Cat M.
Also, massive kudos for not just going home and writing a bitchy post but actually entering the conversation, this sounds like it'll be a very interesting paper.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:50 pm (UTC)Well. There probably is, what with the internet's overwhelming tendancy toward exploding. So I reckon I'll just ignore that, too.
Re: the end
Date: 2005-11-30 09:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:55 pm (UTC)a) I don't really read a lot of gen: when I do, I read it in much the same way (for the same reasons) as I'd read the source or any other original fiction. Characterisation, plot, ideas, language. If I'm really engaged by the canon, I like to read gen that 1) plugs in gaps, deals with aspects of the story or its universe that don't really get much (enough) treatment in canon, and 2) plays with the basic assumptions or 'rules' of canon in cool ways. minnow1212 is one of the people whose gen writing I frequently read and come back to. I'd say that her SGA fic 'Falter' is gen of type 1); her Odyssey fic 'Ordinary' is gen of type 2). I love stories, generally, that play with/draw on/question myths and archetypes ... Wide Sargasso Sea, the poems in Carol Ann Duffy's The World's Wife, some Borges stories. And I love stumbling across stories in fandom that give me the same pleasure as that type of pro-fic. But it isn't why I come to fanfic; I'm here for the slash.
b) romantic 'shipper fic regardless of gender? Well, again, I don't read much het and when I do, it's very similar to my reading outside fandom. If the writer is doing interesting things with characterisation, plot, ideas and language, I'll read and enjoy it. Like gen, though, it isn't really what I come to fanfic for. The difference between this and gen is that it's more difficult for me to enjoy, because I have a number of squicks and things that just annoy me (particularly re the characterisation of female characters) when it comes to romance/romance novels of the het kind. That goes for both original writing and fanfic.
c) Slash of the m/m kind is what I come to fanfic for: in that it's what gives me something recognisably different to anything I get from my reading outside fandom. I still look for the same things - plot, characterisation, language - as I do in other writing, but slash also has something else, this extra charge I don't find anywhere else. I'm not very sure what that is though, exactly. I just find the m/m dynamic as written by slash writers fascinating. It's not necessarily directly about porn - fic in which the characters don't even kiss can still gives me same 'hit' as other, more graphic slash fic. But it's definitely fantasy-reading - it pushes the same buttons as fantasy - and definitely romantic/erotic in some sense. I think different types of slash are romantic in very different senses though, depending on the dynamic between the characters. e.g. the "best friends with snark" dynamic of McKay/Sheppard is totally different to the "epic star-crossed" one of Clark/Lex, or the "smouldering enemies" one of Snape/Harry...I get something different, therefore, from each of those different pairings (written in those ways). And the broader slash categories like hurt/comfort, slavefic, crackfic etc hit different buttons too.
2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?
I think I've answered a) and b) above, pretty much. c) I think slash, at least, is in one sense at one further remove from "real life" than fiction in general. I think fiction generally does reflect life but in a stylised, patterned form that is an interesting and valuable comment-back on 'life' but is also a kind of escape from it. And slash as fantasy is both more stylised and less tied-down to reflecting reality - firstly because of its very nature as fantasy-writing, but also because the "reality" it connects to and reflects is itself fictional (canon). Which is a really cool effect. Uh. Apart from which, I think slash writing - because unmediated, I guess, by the whole commercial publishing industry - is much less 'polite' and censored, offers a much rawer picture of people's views on the experience of relationships and sex than you'd get in the mainstream. Which makes it actually closer to reality, in some sense, than professional fiction.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:56 pm (UTC)Doesn't apply, I'm not a writer only a reader.
4. What were your primary reasons for entering fandom--specifically slash fandom? What are your reasons for staying?
I stumbled into slash via BtVS gen fanfic: I found slash hugely satisfying so I stuck around. I'm not really sure to what extent I can say I'm in fandom though. I mostly lurk. But apart from the slash, I also find fandom as a social phenomenon - even just lurking on the peripheries of it - hugely affirming. That sense of not being a freak. :)
5. Why do you think slash fandom and slash fiction are the phenomena that they are?
Er. Not sure. I haven't been here long enough to have any answers, even provisional ones, to that.
I wonder if the 'how to write a sex scene' list resonant8 is writing at the moment might be relevant to your paper. Because to me, at least, it reads like a deconstruction of Everything I Want From Slash.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:36 pm (UTC)1.
a) It got me started as a writer because it gave me wells of libido and pre-exsiting material as a quick start--and instant readers. I read it just for fun and out of a love of smut.
b) I'm not so into shipper
c) OMG it's my fetish and it ain't hurting anyone.
2. How does what you derive from all of these things differ a) from each other; b) from the source material; and c) from real life?
a/b) I am only really into the whole thing fro slash. Hey, I like porn with plot, I have a gay man fetish. I'm into it and like to mix with like minded perverts.
c) I don't objevtify real gay men ;) and i'm not one. it's a atrictly fictional hitch.
3.
When I write I get exactly the story I want, exactly. Also I branches into original MM, from which I make real honest-to-god cash money. hallelu-jah.
4.
I got into it for erotic material of a sort i like best and cannot find anywhere else. These days I read very little but do a lot of writing of slash and original-- for cash and ego-strokes.
5.
Fascinating with same sex coupling is one of the most common fetishes in men and women--but on of the least catered to by mainstream media. When major publishers get onto this the internet boom may shrink a lot. If I had money I would be starting a slash glossy magazine right now.
BTW I have 7-8 non-ifiction books on slash, I can send a list if you want.
Emily Veinglory
veinglory.com
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 11:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 11:35 pm (UTC)And yeah, that's roughly the difference; there are probably nuances that I've forgotten because it was a whole bunch of years ago and I was like twelve, but pretty much. I would have been quite surprised actually to hear the terms, as such, were back in popular circulation, so I was just wondering.