Why is SGA fandom so segregated?

[trinityofone]

lavvyan! I got your package! Thank you so much, it's gorgeous. (To curious parties: it's a piece of papyrus with the Ancient Egyptian calendar on it.) Actually, the tube it came in is gorgeous, too. But I really want to try to get it framed. And this Treed Murray poster, which I keep saying I should treat myself to. (Hey, I have a new apartment and a new office to decorate here!) There has to be a cheap frame shop in existence somewhere...right?

I am incredibly, incredibly tired today. I was exhausted yesterday, and couldn't even make it through The Daily Show before I crashed. This is bad. I thought I was adjusting to my new work schedule, but I guess I'm not. Is there any way to train yourself to need less sleep?

One thing that has almost kept me energized has been the response to the SGA Bulwer-Lytton Contest. There are so many awesome and hysterical entries, it's going to be killer to choose. So I think I'll pick my--15? Is that how many entries an LJ poll allows?--my 15 or so favorites and let people vote on the Grand Prize Winner. Unless anybody has wild objections, I'll put that up tomorrow.

Like I said, the response has been incredible, and I've seen some new names (by which I mean: people I don't know, even by association, not "people who don't usually comment here"), which is always cool. But--and please correct me if I'm wrong--I still seem to be attracting mostly McKay/Sheppard people, or at least mostly slash people. Which in general makes sense, because hey, I write McKay/Sheppard, I talk about McKay/Sheppard, most of my friends are into McKay/Sheppard. As far as I'm concerned, McKay/Sheppard is for yay.

BUT. I like other pairings, too (my other fandom interest could possibly be described as McKay/women), and I think at least a little cross-pairing pollination is to be encouraged. My last fandom was BtVS/AtS, and it was wild, man. I mean, I started out a Spuffy shipper (Shut up! Their love was pure snarky and hot! At least before it became canon, anyway) but I liked the slash a lot (Buffydom was where I really grew to be comfortable with slash) and I wrote and read some of pretty much everything. It was all mixed.

Why is SGA so much more segregated? I mean, I don't think this is entirely a bad thing--I don't want my flist flooded with Sheppard/Weir stories, and I doubt the Sheppard/Weir shippers want a gazillion McKay/Sheppard stories on their friends pages, either. But is it just me, or is it extremely hard to organize activities that include all sides of fandom? Take reel_sga. The response to that has been great...but as pairings go, not very diverse. In terms of my personal reading habits, that's fine, but I had kind of hoped that there'd be more pairings represented. And maybe there still will be. That would be cool.

(Speaking of one nice bit of pairing diversity, I really loved this reel_sga entry: McKay/Ford art by deani_bean. It's the tie thing. That's awesome, and that transcends OTP-loyalty [and I say this as someone who is mockably OTPish at times]. Which is cool, no?)

Anyway, the Bulwer-Lytton thing is different, because of course it is not pairing-centric: it's mostly about mocking style and usage, although certain tropes have been fun to mock, too. It's about bad writing, but it's also about amusing and clever writing, and seeing what you can do in the space of a sentence. That's something everybody can appreciate, right?

So I guess what I'm wondering is, where are the het shippers? (Again, please correct me if they're around and I've just been too dumb to notice.) And I just don't mean, why aren't they here, responding to this--what is here is awesome, and I'm not like, demanding more people participate, omg. I just mean, I've been in this fandom for almost a year now--how have we managed not to interact at all? Of course, part of this may be me--I'm certainly not trolling john_elizabeth, because why would I want to? So I'm also not saying, "Sheppard/Weir peeps! Why aren't you over at mckay_sheppard? We've got a hot tub, come hang out!" Because seriously, why would they want to? But the fact that there's little-to-no crossover is just astonishing to me.

Maybe it's just that we have a situation that's more like X-Files fandom than Buffydom. Back in the old days, I was rabid about MSR, and I just didn't go anywhere near the slash. (Or Scully/Skinner, or whatever else there was.) I can't remember very well, but I think I was actively afraid of those unfamiliar corners of the net, and that included any of the projects "those people" may have been involved in. Of course, I think this may have had MUCH more to do with the fact that I was 14 than with my shipping preferences, but could there possibly be some connection? What I'd like to know is, do most people on the het end of fandom see even a name associated with slash and immediately go, "Avoid! Avoid! Avoid!"? Which, I hasten to say, would be totally their right. But I realize, I don't even know anyone over there that I could ask.

I'm not saying that there needs to be some sort of cross-ship dialogue, because I think those things tend to end in angry glaring at best. Possibly, just ignoring each other is the best way to avoid conflict, and I'm all for avoiding conflict. I'm just surprised there isn't some sort of neutral zone, some shaded area at the center of the Giant Venn Diagram of Fandom Life. Why do you think that is?

Comments

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

I don't assume everyone who writes slash is a "slasher"; or rather, I don't assume that a person who is a slasher only likes slash. (As I said...um, I think up this thread (maybe to liviapenn?) that's a definition that I believe has changed.) I'm definitely a slasher, but I like het a lot, I've written tons of het in other fandoms, and I've even written some in SGA. (McKay/Teyla and McKay/Cadman.) I'm open to it!

I also do make a habit of clicking on just about everything on sga_newsletter--at least the meta-type posts--when I have the time. I don't always comment, but I like checking things out and knowing what's going on. Of course, since people aren't REQUIRED to comment on everything they click on (that would be a tiresome rule!) I of course can't know if "the het people" (and I do wish there were a better term) ARE looking at the less ship-related things being done by the "slashers"; I was just observing that something like reel_sga, which made an effort to be friendly to all pairings (although admittedly all four mods came from the slash end of fandom) attracted, for the most part, an almost entirely McKay/Sheppard-oriented response. (I think there may have been a Teyla/Ronon fic, a Cadman/Carter fic, and one gen fic besides the McKay/Ford thing I mentioned.) And I was wondering, inarticulately, why.

I was also remembering my own attitude when I first entered fandom and was very het-only, OTP oriented. I was wondering how prevalent that attitude is, and if that's why the het side (and by this I really mean the people who ONLY write het--not you) is so isolated from the slash side. I am sure there are also slash-only people who don't want anything to do with the het side, and that's its own issue, but they're not the ones who I don't know where they are. Without going on places like john_elizabeth and trolling (which would be a bad idea on EVERY level) I don't know how to reach them or put myself out there in a way that would generate a positive response.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I didn't communicate that very well. I suspect I still may not be--there are way too many parentheses in this comment. *g*

[exegesis.livejournal.com]

trin - I was just observing that something like [info]reel_sga, which made an effort to be friendly to all pairings (although admittedly all four mods came from the slash end of fandom)

harriet_spy - And most challenge participation is driven by two things: current fandom trends and the social network of the challenge organizers.

I was wondering about that myself. The diversity in the challenge would reflect who knew about it. Where was it advertised? In primarily McShep circles? Did other shipper fans get passed by because they are not in the circles to see it? That would definitely affect the outcome! Excellent point! (I love your cafeteria analogy too!). I agree. If you want to see how the other half lives...go look! ;-)

Hmm. Didn't consider crossovers. I'd like to think on that more.

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

To answer this question first (because it's easier!) we took great care to pimp reel_sga in enough places to (we hoped) reach a lot more people. Our journals, sga_noticeboard, mckay_sheppard, oddball_sga, and atlantis_fanfic all received pimps. And, admittedly, the sign-ups showed a more broad representation than the actual posted stories--almost all McKay/Sheppard so far. Pourquoi?

[exegesis.livejournal.com]

While you pimped it in plenty of places (go, you!) I did recognise most of the authors names as those who write commonly in McShep. Well, I would say that McShep is far and away the most popular pairing in the fandom and its not just my preferences speaking (well..maybe a little!).

It may be because it is so much fun - the snark and snap and the teamwork. It may be because its cannon. Or it may have been something as simple as all the reel_SGA people just happened to be McShep fans, although there were a few noteable exceptions. Your own fic had Lorne/Elizabeth and Laura as Zelenka's daughter (which I thought quite innovative) and the very first post had McKay/Ford - very unusual! I would like to think that people used the SGA characters most suited for movies they were adapting, but I think most just moulded the movies to be McShep. I'm not complaining - I enjoyed them, but it would have been nice to see people step outside their circles occassionally.

Can we have another reel soon?? I'm thinking i might be woman enough to write one this time...and I suppose after this 'tough' talk I need to break the mold and write an non-McShep one..(the things I write myself into!).

How did the signups show more variety? *is curious*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

My reel fic actually had (rather bizarrely):

McKay/Sheppard
Weir/Lorne
Ford/Heightmeyer
McKay/Cadman
Teyla/Kolya
Sheppard/Weir (past/implied)

I do think the dynamic between John and Rodney lends itself to a lot of things, but I'd have loved, say, some Weir/Zelenka. If we hold another challenge (which we are--tentatively--planning) I should try to write a different pairing, too. (I actually think that Bringing Up Baby, for example, would make a great McKay/Cadman story.)

The sign-ups showed more variety in that some of the people who signed up I recognized as people who didn't typically write McKay/Sheppard, or were people whose names I just didn't recognize at all. So there was the POTENTIAL for other pairings to be represented (although if/when those people finish, they could all write McKay/Sheppard, too--and part of me wouldn't mind *g*). Entries are still coming in, so maybe some more variety might still be added to the mix.

[exegesis.livejournal.com]

*fingers crossed*

Although whether they're crossed for more McKay/Sheppard or more diversity...you're guess is as good as mine! I'll take either! ;-)

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

When it comes right down to it, I feel the same way. Basically, I want more of EVERYTHING. I'm greedy. *g*

[trinityofone.livejournal.com]

Okay, I do see your point--I could definitely do more. I've never been very good at fandom networking, but I'm willing to try. Do you have any people and/or communities to recommend? I already read oddball_sga and mckay_cadman. (And I thought I was on teyla_mckay, but apparently I'm not. Oops!)

However, I really don't see what that will do help larger problems or be conductive to more interaction in general--that neutral zone I was talking about. And hey, maybe something like that would only lead to messiness anyway. But...I was curious. About a lot of different issues involved in this, actually. (I'm still waiting for someone to write The Great Fandom Novel. *g*)

To clarify something else: by "het only," I mean the people who like to read or write only (or mostly) het--which is perfectly valid, IMO. However, just because those are your reading/writing preferences, that doesn't mean that you can't associate with people with different preferences, or engage in meta discussions with them, or be part of the same (non-pairing-specific) challenges with them. And I don't even see that happening. Which is really what I was wondering about, not, "Why don't more 'het people' read/write slash?" or "Why don't more 'slash people' read/write het?"

[saeva.livejournal.com]

What the fandom needs for a neutral place, in my opinion, is a neutral newsletter, which is something we do not currently have. SGA_newsletter, as great as it is, has a definite and persistent bias and so long as it is does and its moderators read to that bias the possibilities of a neutral zone being effective are slim to none.

It's funny. I've been in fandom for many years and I remember when slashers had to hunker down and try not to draw too much attention, though I wasn't in the days of the complete blackouts. And in SGA, you get the opposite. All you have to do is raise your hand and say that you don't ship McKay/Sheppard at all -- not that you ship it *and* other things but that you don't believe in it or even John-Rodney friendship -- and it's like the older days of saying you thought slash was a legitimate interpretation.

Frankly, the SGA shippers are really, really stubborn about their pairings and while I think that's equally true of all the major ships (I'm not really including John/Teyla because it's not a major ship like the slashers seem to think it is) I think the difference is that the McShep shippers don't want their "buzz" to be ruined whereas the Elizabeth/John shippers (for example) just don't want to be told that they're crazy. It's a shifting of the guard, in a way.

And, like I said, so long as the major source of information retains a McKay/Sheppard bias (wherein het stories take longer to be put into issues and are sometimes excluded all together and known het writers have meta looked over more often -- and I'm not pointing fingers or saying this is intentional) this isn't going to change. Yes, on LJ McShep has more people. But the exposure it has relative to the ratio of people it has in comparison to the ships and non-ship things is out of proportion.

- Andrea.

[veracity]

I read it was meaning that if you look, the newsletter has a "McKay/Sheppard" slash area and then a "various slash" variety. And the het is usually woefully small compared to McKay/Sheppard. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation, at least from my perspective at least.

If the mods (editors, whatever they're called in the fandom) were to read more diverse pairings and show it as such by reccing, it would be a more fandom-specific instead of mod-specific list. Again, not criticism, just what I got from her statement. Please note I'm coming from the HP fandom newletters that were pretty big and a very specific for their purposes (Longbottom, Daily Snitch, Hogwarts Today, etc), and so that might be messing with my perceptions of the statement as well.

[veracity]

Well, I don't think it's a recletter persay, but if they're all traveling in the same circles, it's hard to come up with other alternatives to link. Again, I might be slightly more skewed after looking at the HP fandom's newsletters as well. It was basically the same people continously praising each other, so I might be a tad biased.

The division of links makes a lot of sense, but it in some ways it divides too. Like "McShep and everything else." I'm sure it's not intentional, and as I said, makes a lot of sense. It just kinda sets up a division. I don't mind it, personally. I read pretty much everything linked if I find the summary interesting. Well, except Sheppard/Weir and Sheppard/Teyla. Again, more of my HP fandom experiences biting me in the butt. I don't want to get back into the pull and tug type thing. Probably why I'm a multishipper too, then I have a more diverse reading base, and less chance of getting pulled into a "my OTP is better than yours!" debacle.

I'm pretty new too. Since Memorial Day, so...that's what? Less than three months, and I've only started really looking for things on my own recently (though I did find the Teylafen community through the newsletter, so that was a plus). It's a matter of trial and error. Plus, meta and things like this give me links to more place to check out (like the McKay/Cadman community I didn't know existed) and dip another toe into.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

Actually its not a recletter at all in any say. :)

And its actually quite easy to find alternatives we can link to outside our own personal friendslists and interests. We use a reader list for the newsletter in which we friended all the big communities and quite a few of the smaller ones (http://sga-reader.livejournal.com/profile) and we will link to every fanfic posted to any of these communities.

Also, our thought behind excluding McKay/Sheppard from the slash category and giving it its own was a practical one allowing for better readability for all involved. After all, I think a lot of people would be unhappy if we were to have a slash category that was 90% McKay/Sheppard and them having through it before they find what they are looking for.

And again, our motto can basically be boiled down to: We don't chose what to include; we link!

[veracity]

*nods* I understand that. Which is why I said that. Hell, I use the newsletter all the time to find finds and the like. It wasn't a criticism, just my interpretation of the statement made.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Veracity had it someone on the head. It isn't but it often behaves like one. I don't think this is really intentional but -- Okay.

The editors link a) what they see and b) what's sent to them. They, being of certain tastes, see certain things when just looking on their own (read: it better be John/Flanigan or Rodney/Hewlett centric). What's linked (or, rather, e-mailed, which makes people less likely to do it than if they could just link in comments like with metafandom) to them is a relatively small portion of what they post every day however. Mostly, it's what they see.

And because of that McShep stuff especially gets put up immediately and in logical places, whereas the "het" stuff is across the board. Sometimes it shows up three days late, or not at all, or labelled with the wrong pairing or put into "fanfic uncategorized" when it was het or uncategorized when it was gen.

It's not a recletter but the editors don't seem to go out of their way to make it anything but what they see on their flists with their interests, so it's not really a LJ-fandom Stargate: Atlantis newsletter either.

It's not obvious, really, and I hesitate to make claims even now. But it's little things. The delays, the lack of branching out into the het communities that, you know, do exist in fairly significant numbers. The fact that if you icon Teyla and other characters (not John, Rodney, or John/Rodney) more often than not, even if you do a LOT of SGA graphics, your posts tend to be overlooked.

Little things that show a bias that the newsletter doesn't admit to but most people who I know who don't ship McShep (regardless of what they do ship if they ship at all) believe exists.

- Andrea.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your thoughtful post in all of this.

I'd just like to add on behalf of the newsletter staff:

1) Comments are in fact turned on and screened.

2) YES! We welcome everyone who is sending us links. We might not always have the time to respond or say thank you but we always appreciate the help.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding about how we do our work each day so I would just like to clear up some of the misconceptions you might have:

- The editors link a) what they see
We link what is being posted in any of the big communities across the board. None of us use their personal friendslist when searching for stuff to include (which doesn't mean that we never include anything that we so on our friendslists but as editors we solely rely on out reading journal which again, you can find here: http://sga-reader.livejournal.com/profile

-b) what's sent to them.
Very much true.

-or, rather, e-mailed, which makes people less likely to do it than if they could just link in comments like with [info]metafandom
Actually, I find it difficult to understand why many people seem to find it easier writing a comment than an email but since this has been brought to our attention before we have allowed comments for a very long time now.

-And because of that McShep stuff especially gets put up immediately and in logical places, whereas the "het" stuff is across the board.
This is simply incorrect. We put up the stuff when we see it posted on the communities and solely rely on the pairing information porvided by the author.

-or put into "fanfic uncategorized" when it was het or uncategorized when it was gen.
If no pairing information is given we will put the fic into the uncategoried section. This happens to McKay/Sheppard fic without label as much as it does to any other.
It might come as a surprise that a)we can't read everything we link and b)we might even have made mistakes before. In these cases we fix whatever is being pointed out to us as soon as we have the time.

-the editors don't seem to go out of their way to make it anything but what they see on their flists
This is simply *not* correct and I have to point out that whatever your intention behind making that claim, I feel its a disrespect of all the hard work we put into creating something as neutral and diverse as possible.

Believe me, if we would not go out of our way every single day to include stuff that is not on our friendslist the newsletter would be much shorter than it is now.

-The delays, the lack of branching out into the het communities that, you know, do exist in fairly significant numbers.
We would be grateful if you could just send us a list of all the important het communities we are apparently missing on our reading journal so that we will be able to provide a better service to the community at large.

-The fact that if you icon Teyla and other characters (not John, Rodney, or John/Rodney) more often than not, even if you do a LOT of SGA graphics, your posts tend to be overlooked.
I would really be interested in knowing where you get that impression because I am actually not a very graphic savy person and most of the time don't even really look at any of the icons we are linking (as there are so many of them many days).

[zyna-kat.livejournal.com]

See, I didn't know it was a recletter.

It isn't. It links to all the stories they find (or are reported), good or bad. If het fans feel as though they're being underrepresented, then perhaps they should step up and contact the folks behind the newsletter.

The SGA newsletter tries to be very egalitarian, and, imo, it succeeds. Is it possible SGA_newsletter is biased? Sure. It's also possible that the people complaining about the newsletter bias are just as biased in their own view.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

Actually you seem to have a better understanding of what the newsletter does than one or two of our regular readers seem to have. :)

We don't rec anything, we just link what's there.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd like to point out that the only reason for why we have a seperate category for McKay/Sheppard is a practical one. The sheer amount of McKay/Sheppard stories that are being posted any given day onto the communities we read (which includes all het, gen and slash communities we could find) is simply so much larger than *any* other pairing in the fandom. In order to keep the newsletter reader friendly we simply had to seperate the McKay/Sheppard slash from all else.

As soon as we will find any other pairing with even half as many stories a day we will of course also include a special area just for that pairing.

Also, we are everything but a reclist. Most days each editor can read not even everything within the pairing they are interested in nor would we have the time to actually create a reclist of everything that is in fandom.

We do try every single time we do the newsletter to be as diverse as the postings to the 136 communities we read each day allow us to be.

[veracity]

To respond a bit from the other. I completely understand, and as I said, I'm coming from the HP fandom, where the newsletters felt more like a circle jerk more than a service. It makes sense to separate the McKay/Sheppard than the other, it's just a matter of a first look at the newsletter and being new to fandom. That was a bit disconcerting for the first weeks, but once I had been in fandom for that time, I figured out why it was done that way.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

Regarding the allogations against the strong bias of the newsletter stuff I would like to point out the following.

We all spend about 2 hours each day, reading and linking about 136 communities starting with advent_atlentis and ending with zeropointsnark (if you would like to see a complete list please check out our reading journal here: http://sga-reader.livejournal.com/profile.

Everything that is being posted is linked onto the newsletter and while it is very much true that we have actually mislabeled stories in every single category before this is neither intentional nor biased nor does it happen in some categories more than in others.

If you happen have statistics that prove otherwise I'd be very surprised.

OTOH it is very well true that we come from the same corner of the fandom and that we do have friendslist and sometimes link to McKay/Sheppard fic that don't get posted onto communities because we do see them on that private friendslist. But the percentage of the McKay/Sheppard fic we find like this is very small.

Also, there is not more we could do than asking people from different parts of the fandom for help when we were looking for new editors who simply did *not* come forward. (http://community.livejournal.com/sga_newsletter/44433.html)

So I guess our bias is that a)we actually accpet help from those who offer it to us and b) we try to be as unbiased as possible - and since you seem to feel that we didn't succeeed there is nothing you could do than providing us with additional links.